What Would Be Your Response - Page 5

What Would Be Your Response

This is a discussion on What Would Be Your Response within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Sorry, but if I believe a course of action to be poorly conceived, ill-advised, unnecessarily hazardous to one's well being or ...

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  1. #61
    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Sorry, but if I believe a course of action to be poorly conceived, ill-advised, unnecessarily hazardous to one's well being or detrimental to the greater good, it will not receive my unwavering endorsement.
    Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    If the right to open carry disappeared today, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.
    Seems to me the greater good would be to support the right to bear arms whether we agree with how other people do it or not simply because if we don't eventually (like is happening right now) there won't be any right to bear any arms in any way at all.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    What would be an effective articulated reasonable justification for shooting someone who is doing nothing illegal? As far as I know simple fear of what might happen doesn't fit the reasonable man standard.
    Bikenut, while I agree he has broken no written law to go into Walmart dressed the way he did would and could be seen by a lot of common everyday people as causing reasonable fear of harm or even death. And to many reactions from the article I'd say he did just that. So yes I'd agree with Mike that he could be shot for fear of life, death and harm standards. If you were the one who shot him could and would you be held and charge? Good chance, but found guilty? Not so sure. But lawyers are expensive

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mailman View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    What would be an effective articulated reasonable justification for shooting someone who is doing nothing illegal? As far as I know simple fear of what might happen doesn't fit the reasonable man standard.
    , while I agree he has broken no written law to go into Walmart dressed the way he did would and could be seen by a lot of common everyday people as causing reasonable fear of harm or even death. And to many reactions from the article I'd say he did just that. So yes I'd agree with Mike that he could be shot for fear of life, death and harm standards. If you were the one who shot him could and would you be held and charge? Good chance, but found guilty? Not so sure. But lawyers are expensive
    Is someone who does not have a weapon in hand pushing a grocery cart present a justifiable threat to a reasonable man? Or does it present a picture of what unreasonable men are fearful of?

    Remember the legal standard is that a reasonable (not a fearful) man would believe there is an imminent threat to life/limb.

    https://definitions.uslegal.com/r/re...le-man-theory/

    Reasonable Man Theory Law and Legal Definition

    -snip-This hypothetical person referred to as the reasonable/prudent man exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct that society requires of its members for the protection of their own and of others' interests.-snip-
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Seems to me the greater good would be to support the right to bear arms whether we agree with how other people do it or not simply because if we don't eventually (like is happening right now) there won't be any right to bear any arms in any way at all.
    Clearly, we are in disagreement on this particular topic.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

  6. #65
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    Bikenut, with your's and Mike's discussion on open carry I'll need to side with you both to a point.

    While the Right to Open Carry is a right granted by the Constitution and is a Right worth fighting for a Right to do something does not mean you have the right to do that Right in all places and times.

    When your Right to do effects someone else's Right or way of life...feelings, thought or way of life then YOUR Right has reached its point of becoming a non-Right. To help (hopefully) make my point lets say we are both driving. You are coming down the road I wish to pull out into. I have the right to do so and if you hit me in the back end then you did not have your car under control. BUT even though I had the Right to pull out did I have the right to effect the way you drive your car. I say no! Any time my Rights actions cause or effect someone else my rights have gone beyond my right to do my Right

  7. #66
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    Sometimes, exercises "For The Greater Good" work to our detriment rather than our benefit. Just because the law says that you are legally entitled to do something, doesn't mean that you should do it in situations where it is obviously inappropriate. If you're too stupid to grasp that basic concept, you're probably too stupid to be carrying in the first place.
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  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Struckat's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion.
    I support open carry though I would never do it.
    I donít understand open carry of a rifle in an urban setting while shopping, and probably never will.
    The guy, although legal age, whatever that means, is just a stupid boy. The three I raised, although not as stupid as this one, did make me wonder at times.

    I would not have been surprised if they had shot him on sight.
    As far as charging him goes, he did this just to cause panic. The charges are his reward.
    Fair? That is where you ride the ferris wheel.
    Learning is a long hard road, but harder when you are stupid.

    We do need to stick together, no matter how we carry. I think that in the end it wonít matter. They breed and program more of the panic types every day. I am certain my grandchildren will not have a second amendment. It may go away even before my time is up.
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  9. #68
    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mailman View Post
    Bikenut, with your's and Mike's discussion on open carry I'll need to side with you both to a point.

    While the Right to Open Carry is a right granted by the Constitution and is a Right worth fighting for a Right to do something does not mean you have the right to do that Right in all places and times.

    When your Right to do effects someone else's Right or way of life...feelings, thought or way of life then YOUR Right has reached its point of becoming a non-Right. To help (hopefully) make my point lets say we are both driving. You are coming down the road I wish to pull out into. I have the right to do so and if you hit me in the back end then you did not have your car under control. BUT even though I had the Right to pull out did I have the right to effect the way you drive your car. I say no! Any time my Rights actions cause or effect someone else my rights have gone beyond my right to do my Right
    First of all the right to bear arms is not granted by the 2nd Amendment. The right to bear arms is a natural right each and every human being on the planet has just because they are human beings. The 2nd Amendment merely recognizes that right and is supposed to be a law against the government preventing the government from regulating or controlling that right.

    Secondly rights do not depend on feelings. How I feel about someone carrying a rifle into Wal Mart or how his carrying it makes me feel has no bearing on the fact that he has the right to bear arms whether I like it or not. As far as my rights affecting your thoughts you (and I) can think what you (we) like about the rights of others but if rights are dependent upon what someone thinks then there are no rights..... only restrictions on behavior according to what other people think is not acceptable or reasonable to do. Would you like to have what anti gunners think control your ability to carry?

    Your comparison to driving is flawed in there is no right to drive. There is a legal responsibility to drive in a manner that does not endanger others though.
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  10. #69
    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Struckat View Post
    -snip-
    We do need to stick together, no matter how we carry. I think that in the end it wonít matter. They breed and program more of the panic types every day. I am certain my grandchildren will not have a second amendment. It may go away even before my time is up.
    I agree. Sadly I believe many supposed supporters of the right to keep and bear arms will help the loss of the 2nd Amendment happen simply by not putting aside personal opinion and standing for the right itself.
    Struckat likes this.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

  11. #70
    VIP Member Array Texas Red's Avatar
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    What Would Be Your Response

    Put plenty of distance between myself and that guy.

    Maybe he's harmless.

    But anybody who's so clueless to pull a stunt like that after last weekend may be a real basket case.

    Not up to me to sort him out.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mailman View Post
    Bikenut, while I agree he has broken no written law to go into Walmart dressed the way he did would and could be seen by a lot of common everyday people as causing reasonable fear of harm or even death. And to many reactions from the article I'd say he did just that. So yes I'd agree with Mike that he could be shot for fear of life, death and harm standards. If you were the one who shot him could and would you be held and charge? Good chance, but found guilty? Not so sure. But lawyers are expensive
    So if the same guy walked into the same store unarmed but wearing an evil clown suit such as those in the headline news 2-3 years ago, would that be cause for people to be in fear? Should he be shot for that?

    Had I seen the armed guy in that store I would have been on alert and had my eyes open, but I would not have been rushing for the door. Most of the open carriers I've seen at Wal-Marts here in AZ have had sloppy, substandard holsters and gear that make me doubt their proficiency with arms.
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  13. #72
    Senior Member Array baren's Avatar
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    I totally agree. I hope he gets a decent lawyer to sue Walmart for their over reaction which actually created the threat. The DA is overreaching, IMO.

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array baren's Avatar
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    I don't see why not, but he should sue Walmart as well for over reacting.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    At TDI, a very similar scenario is run, in many of the advanced handgun classes.

    As often as not, like it or not, the guy gets shot in the parking lot.
    I'm surprised he made it into the store. I wonder how many people saw the El Paso shooter walking from his car until firing the first shot and assumed he was just exercising his 2A rights.

    Legal open carry or not, his attire was not normal. No way I could brush it off and carry on with my business. At the very least I would have followed at a safe distance ready to act.

    As far as the cell phone recording, we can't assume it is another guy wanting to be famous for proving a 2A point. The person could be live broadcasting a mass shooting in the works. "I'm walking through WalMart fully armed and ready. I'll create a panic, cause hundreds of people to rush to the doors, and while they are stacked up trying to get out......"
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by flh View Post
    Any one here want to reenact what this individual did , and report back how it all went ...
    Great post!...I am pretty sure the report would be just as in Missouri...I think we all know deep down and rights aside...There is a reason
    why we rarely ,If ever go out in public and see a guy walking around like just like this guy exercising his right.
    flh likes this.

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