Good or Bad Shoot? - Page 6

Good or Bad Shoot?

This is a discussion on Good or Bad Shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I simply hope that all those well intending people who were hailing this as a justified shooting just a few short months ago will examine ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Fizban's Avatar
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    I simply hope that all those well intending people who were hailing this as a justified shooting just a few short months ago will examine the practical merits of this case and learn from it. As I remember, there were quite a few forum members who went on and on and on about this being a good shoot.


    Still, I am seeing forum members examine this issue from some sort of moralistic angle. The question in my mind has never been a moral one but rather an examination of the reasonableness of deadly force in this particular circumstance. I don't care who the bigger jerk was or who deserved what...it doesn't matter. The question is about force and whether or not that level of force was reasonable under the circumstances. Clearly it was not reasonable
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  2. #77
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    It ain't the Wild West anymore. Just because you carry a gun, you can't shoot somebody that pushes you down.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I am completely lost on the context surrounding the question you have posed to me. I am sure you have a point of some sort and if you do, please just make it. I have no idea what you are talking about.


    Bullies? What Bullies? … get a "handle" on what. What is being handled and what does 4 years old taking Judo have to do with anything?
    Kindergarten is where we traditionally see chillens start to group into factions that learn to intimidate and harras - bully - each other.

    I see the Martial Arts as a way to filter and guide this intimidation - bullying - in a socially acceptable and robust manor.

    Sport is truly the mind of the God's, and the Jedi, nonetheless.
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  5. #79
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    Up next on CSPAN

    George Carlin on getting your balls squeezed.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
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  6. #80
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    The guy had a history of confronting people. He was stopped before for check braking someone, and showing his gun while driving. I do believe he pulled a gun on a truck driver at a gas station.

    It's horrible someone was killed. I wonder if he had not shot, would the guy who shoved him be charged with assault? Would they be charged for parking in a handicap spot? Entitlement, "in your face", attitude is just more common place now.

  7. #81
    Senior Member Array ButtShot14's Avatar
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    Mr. Drejka may have said something to instigate the encounter, however he did not touch the man who attacked him. I'm thinking the one who "threw the first punch" put the violence into motion. Clearly this was an assualt. Who knows what the attacker would have done next since Drejka was on the ground. Go ahead and convict him of manslaughter, but suspend the sentence.
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  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I simply hope that all those well intending people who were hailing this as a justified shooting just a few short months ago will examine the practical merits of this case and learn from it. As I remember, there were quite a few forum members who went on and on and on about this being a good shoot.


    Still, I am seeing forum members examine this issue from some sort of moralistic angle. The question in my mind has never been a moral one but rather an examination of the reasonableness of deadly force in this particular circumstance. I don't care who the bigger jerk was or who deserved what...it doesn't matter. The question is about force and whether or not that level of force was reasonable under the circumstances. Clearly it was not reasonable
    I am one who thought it was a good shoot based on the reasonable man argument and disparity of force issue that I observed from the video clip. I thought at the time, and still believe that by the components of the law mentioned above that he was in the legal right......and still do.

    Morally , I think he was in the wrong, both at the beginning of the incident, and at the end of the incident.

    I wouldnt have shot the dude unless he had a weapon, or attacked me again with overwhelming force.

    Apparently the jury felt different after hearing all the evidence. I also believe they felt a duty to social justice, and it influenced their vote on this.

    But thats jmo.
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  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I am one who thought it was a good shoot based on the reasonable man argument and disparity of force issue that I observed from the video clip. I thought at the time, and still believe that by the components of the law mentioned above that he was in the legal right......and still do.

    Morally , I think he was in the wrong, both at the beginning of the incident, and at the end of the incident.

    I wouldnt have shot the dude unless he had a weapon, or attacked me again with overwhelming force.

    Apparently the jury felt different after hearing all the evidence. I also believe they felt a duty to social justice, and it influenced their vote on this.

    But thats jmo.
    I've wondered if he isn't picking up some of Zimmerman's tab.
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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButtShot14 View Post
    Mr. Drejka may have said something to instigate the encounter, however he did not touch the man who attacked him. I'm thinking the one who "threw the first punch" put the violence into motion. Clearly this was an assualt. Who knows what the attacker would have done next since Drejka was on the ground. Go ahead and convict him of manslaughter, but suspend the sentence.
    It was an assault, it had ended when the shot was fired. Apparently, a jury of his peers didn't believe he was in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death when he pulled the trigger.

    You can't just shoot someone for shoving you to the ground with no further imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death.

    Who knows what the attacker would have done next since Drejka was on the ground

    Prognostication isn't a legal defense.
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  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    It was an assault, it had ended when the shot was fired. Apparently, a jury of his peers didn't believe he was in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death when he pulled the trigger.

    You can't just shoot someone for shoving you to the ground with no further imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death.

    Who knows what the attacker would have done next since Drejka was on the ground

    Prognostication isn't a legal defense.
    Thats where you have to be careful and know your law. Here in Ky, the violence of the push down would have demonstrated a willingness of action to assault someone, taking prognostication off the table.

    I think he should appeal this based on those terms.
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  12. #86
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Thats where you have to be careful and know your law. Here in Ky, the violence of the push down would have demonstrated a willingness of action to assault someone, taking prognostication off the table.

    I think he should appeal this based on those terms.
    In any state, the shove would demonstrate a willingness to action to assault someone. However, there was no further demonstration of willingness to action to continue the assault. The shooter had enough time to access and draw from an awkward position, raise the gun to eye level, sight in on him without any further aggression or attack on his person.

    Jury of 12 got it right, based primarily on the fact the assault had ended, and he wasn't in imminent danger at the moment he fired. Being shoved to the ground with no further continued aggression on your person isn't cause to use deadly force. If that were somehow true, every kid on the playground who gets shoved to the ground could claim he was in fear for his life and take a baseball bat to the kid's head who shoved him.

    The shooter was obviously guncentric. Now he's a guncentric criminal doing time.

    To those who've thought it was a good shoot, I wonder if they themselves would have fired in this same scenario.

  13. #87
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    It was an assault, it had ended when the shot was fired. Apparently, a jury of his peers didn't believe he was in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death when he pulled the trigger.

    You can't just shoot someone for shoving you to the ground with no further imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death.

    Who knows what the attacker would have done next since Drejka was on the ground

    Prognostication isn't a legal defense.
    True but I'm thinking that Drejka, from his "vantage point", flat on his arse on the asphalt where he had just been knocked by a surprise assault maybe could be said to be in a reasonable fear for what might happen next. He's stunned and the scene is in real time, not on a video after the fact. I'd have some second thoughts about a guilty verdict.
    Manslaughter maybe. Nothing more.
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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    In any state, the shove would demonstrate a willingness to action to assault someone. However, there was no further demonstration of willingness to action to continue the assault. The shooter had enough time to access and draw from an awkward position, raise the gun to eye level, sight in on him without any further aggression or attack on his person.

    Jury of 12 got it right, based primarily on the fact the assault had ended, and he wasn't in imminent danger at the moment he fired.
    I believe the reasonable man sitting on the ground after being pushed down violently like he was would have every reason to believe he was still in danger of bodily harm, especially with the guy still towering over him.

    Basically, your assessment would set the precedent that just because someone pulls a weapon, a threat response is not warranted until the blade is in your flesh, or the gun is fired. It’s a slippery slope, which pretty much nullifies something like the Tueller incident and subsequent training.
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  15. #89
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    True but I'm thinking that Drejka, from his "vantage point", flat on his arse on the asphalt where he had just been knocked by a surprise assault maybe could be said to be in a reasonable fear for what might happen next. He's stunned and the scene is in real time, not on a video after the fact. I'd have some second thoughts about a guilty verdict.
    Manslaughter maybe. Nothing more.
    I've had a similar incident where I was blindsided by a second assailant where my jaw was broken and I suffered a mild concussion. He hit me and stood there without further attacking me. I was armed with a 1911. My first thought wasn't to draw the gun, but get to kicking some arse. IMO, he wasn't injured enough to suffer a concussion nor broken bones and had full control of his mental faculties.

  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post

    To those who've thought it was a good shoot, I wonder if they themselves would have fired in this same scenario.
    I would have either fought him or ran.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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