Stand your ground vs no duty to retreat?

Stand your ground vs no duty to retreat?

This is a discussion on Stand your ground vs no duty to retreat? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Texas has a “No duty to retreat “ rule. Does that protect from civil action if proven innocent or if no charges were brought against ...

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Thread: Stand your ground vs no duty to retreat?

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    New Member Array taltexan's Avatar
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    Stand your ground vs no duty to retreat?

    Texas has a “No duty to retreat “ rule. Does that protect from civil action if proven innocent or if no charges were brought against anyone in a self defense shooting? I have read where some states offer immunity from civil suits .
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    The TX statute has the answer to that question. Maybe someone here has the answer, but can they defend you if you get prosecuted if they are wrong. Ask a lawyer who does criminal defense law in TX. It is not just the written law that governs. Court decisions shape interpretations of the law.
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    New Member Array taltexan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post

    Thanks guys, that’s what I was looking for.
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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Texas Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.

    However, you have to realize three things: 1) In most SD situations, there is not a legal finding that says you were justified. It will just be that the prosecutor's opinion is that you were justified, so he just doesn't prosecute you. So that could leave it to a civil court in a civil suit to decide. 2) In a criminal case, SD is an affirmative defense, meaning that you as the defender have to prove the justification of SD. But if you never went to a criminal trial, you would have never had that chance. So, 3) The burden of proof in a civil case is for the plaintiff to prove you weren't justified and the level of proof required is lighter than in a criminal trial.

    So Texas law would seem to give you some protection, but there are loopholes in that kind of stuff. So if some plaintiff's lawyer thinks they can convince a jury you were not justified under Chapter 9 of the Penal Code, they might still go for it.
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    You also have to keep in mind the different standards between a Criminal and Civil. The standard for a criminal conviction is: "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt." Whereas in a civil case the standard is: "Preponderance of the Evidence."


    These differing standards are how someone can be found not guilty in a criminal case and yet lose a civil suit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaGunny View Post
    You also have to keep in mind the different standards between a Criminal and Civil. The standard for a criminal conviction is: "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt." Whereas in a civil case the standard is: "Preponderance of the Evidence."


    These differing standards are how someone can be found not guilty in a criminal case and yet lose a civil suit.
    The point of immunity laws is that if your actions are justified, a civil suit cannot even be brought against you. There are many news articles of families of deceased attackers who tried to file suit, and the judge dismissed it. In some of those cases, the defendant did hire an attorney to file the motion. In some states, the plaintiff was required by law to reimburse the defendant for all costs, fees, and lost income.
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    FL does have the civil immunity law, but it must be granted by a judge. I do not know if that is an issue in most cases or not, but there has been cases of justified self defense where civil immunity was not applied.
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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    The point of immunity laws is that if your actions are justified, a civil suit cannot even be brought against you. There are many news articles of families of deceased attackers who tried to file suit, and the judge dismissed it. In some of those cases, the defendant did hire an attorney to file the motion. In some states, the plaintiff was required by law to reimburse the defendant for all costs, fees, and lost income.
    Yep, that's how they are supposed to work, and they probably do, nine times out of ten. But the law does not always work the way it's supposed to. I would not want to test the Texas immunity law in Dallas, Austin or Houston nowadays.

    First, immunity laws assume a so-called "good shoot" per the law. The former prosecutor who taught the SD law class I took said she has handled a lot of shootings with SD claims and she has never seen a "shoot" so good she couldn't poke holes in it if she really wanted to. I'm glad some states have immunity laws and I'm glad they work most of the time. But what a law says and how it could possibly applied are two different things. That's all people here are sayin'...
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    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Yep, that's how they are supposed to work, and they probably do, nine times out of ten. But the law does not always work the way it's supposed to. I would not want to test the Texas immunity law in Dallas, Austin or Houston nowadays.

    First, immunity laws assume a so-called "good shoot" per the law. The former prosecutor who taught the SD law class I took said she has handled a lot of shootings with SD claims and she has never seen a "shoot" so good she couldn't poke holes in it if she really wanted to. I'm glad some states have immunity laws and I'm glad they work most of the time. But what a law says and how it could possibly applied are two different things. That's all people here are sayin'...
    Houston, Dallas, and Austin are still in Texas, and Texas law applies. The law here is really straight forward. If it wasnt criminal, you're not getting money.
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    Distinguished Member Array NECCdude's Avatar
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    I spent an hour looking through Nebraska statutes but couldn't find anything definitive on civil liability except for an article on LB 925 that was passed in the late 60's. I didn't know that I had to become a law student. Hopefully, no one will end up in a position to find out what would happen in the aftermath of a self defense situation. Considering the huge number of laws, I can see how someone could make a mistake and end up in prison.
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    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Yep, that's how they are supposed to work, and they probably do, nine times out of ten. But the law does not always work the way it's supposed to. I would not want to test the Texas immunity law in Dallas, Austin or Houston nowadays.

    First, immunity laws assume a so-called "good shoot" per the law. The former prosecutor who taught the SD law class I took said she has handled a lot of shootings with SD claims and she has never seen a "shoot" so good she couldn't poke holes in it if she really wanted to. I'm glad some states have immunity laws and I'm glad they work most of the time. But what a law says and how it could possibly applied are two different things. That's all people here are sayin'...
    Can you find a case in a state that has civil immunity, where an aggressor or their family successfully filed suit against the victim who used justified lethal force? All I found was that FL seperated criminal and civil liability in 2017. So any example from FL would need to be before then. A case in TX would be most helpful to the OP.
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    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    Can you find a case in a state that has civil immunity, where an aggressor or their family successfully filed suit against the victim who used justified lethal force? All I found was that FL seperated criminal and civil liability in 2017. So any example from FL would need to be before then. A case in TX would be most helpful to the OP.
    I was reading a thread on texas CHL forum about this shortly after the OP posted the question, and in that thread nobody was aware of it ever happening here.
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    Lately, it doesn't seem that our law makers down here get it right. with the exception of this one.
    I for one do not trust the judicial system to treat gun owners fairly.
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    The thing to remember about civil immunity in Texas is that it only protects you against actions from the bad guy or his family / estate. Any damages or injuries sustained by innocent third parties are not covered. So as long as you don't miss you are good to go. Any rounds that do not hit the bad guy can have dollar signs attached to them.
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