Armed, should you engage?

Armed, should you engage?

This is a discussion on Armed, should you engage? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Neil and Kim at Geauga Firearms Academy put out some very educational/informative videos. This one Neil talks about as a licensed carrier, when you should ...

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Thread: Armed, should you engage?

  1. #1
    Member Array giz5792's Avatar
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    Armed, should you engage?

    Neil and Kim at Geauga Firearms Academy put out some very educational/informative videos. This one Neil talks about as a licensed carrier, when you should engage a target and can you deal with the aftermath. It makes one think and we all know that there is a very short window for that when using deadly force.

    Hope you enjoy the video, and no, I have no connection with them whatsoever.



  2. #2
    VIP Member Array sammeow's Avatar
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    The answer is It all depends.
    Decisions are based on experience and experience comes from prior actions and decisions, both good and bad.

    And at the same time, The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.
    There's only one way to get to heaven. John 14:6

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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Hes spot on with every point. I carry to protect my myself and my loved ones. Ill intervene for a third party if Im absolutely sure of the situation AND I feel I can safely and decisively resolve the situation. I will only shoot if it is unavoidable, not just because I am legally justified.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Hes spot on with every point. I carry to protect my myself and my loved ones. Ill intervene for a third party if Im absolutely sure of the situation AND I feel I can safely and decisively resolve the situation. I will only shoot if it is unavoidable, not just because I am legally justified.
    Which is all wholly responsible and appropriate, but it sort of puts a kink into the oft-repeated arguments, like "If there had only been one good guy there with a gun, the bad guy could have been stopped" and "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" and other such arguments about how good guys with guns would really take bite out of crime.

    This is the reason we aren't making a huge dent in stopping crime or lowering crime rates like pro gun carry folks say should be happening. Where we are making a significant impact is in protecting ourselves and our loved ones, which is infinitely more important than numbers about rates.
    simple_man17 likes this.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    Which is all wholly responsible and appropriate, but it sort of puts a kink into the oft-repeated arguments, like "If there had only been one good guy there with a gun, the bad guy could have been stopped" and "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" and other such arguments about how good guys with guns would really take bite out of crime.

    This is the reason we aren't making a huge dent in stopping crime or lowering crime rates like pro gun carry folks say should be happening. Where we are making a significant impact is in protecting ourselves and our loved ones, which is infinitely more important than numbers about rates.
    You raise an important point. My thoughts:
    • The "good guy with a gun" slogan is a Wayne LaPierre thing, or at least he most often gets it attributed to him. Nowadays, I would not hang my hat on anything associated with WLP.
    • Making a significant impact on protecting ourselves and our loved ones is making an impact on lowering crime. Not only is the immediate crime against you and yours impacted, we know that criminals are deterred by the possibility that someone might be armed. That is huge. And I think it is bigger than third party defenses ever will be or could be.
    • An unsuccessful or unlawful third party defense does more harm to gun rights than 10 good third party defenses, because he MSM will report the former, but not the latter.
    • In a tactical, life-threatening situation, political ramifications should not even be a consideration. I'm not going to say to myself, "Getting involved in this situation is not smart, but I want to help prove to the world that defensive carriers can make a difference, so in I go..."
    • It's been demonstrated that the real life savers in mass shootings are people who take a leadership role in guiding people to safety, more than those who engaged the shooter.
    • Even if we are successful in a third party defense, the MSM and politicians will ignore it at best, or at worst try to make the case that we used excessive force or we endangered innocent bystanders, if they can. It is a no-win game.
    • Like the video said, you are probably going to get sued anyway. And the person you protected is not going to cover your expenses.
    • If the person you shot is someone whose "life matters," you and your loved ones may get targeted for reprisals. This has happened.

    That being said, I will get involved in a third party situation, but strictly under the conditions I stated previously. But everyone has to make their own decision.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    Depends. I usually surprise myself.
    Second Amendment: The difference between politicians and rulers.
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    Good video......
    "Once that bell rings, you're on your own. It's just you and the other guy. - Joe Lewis

    Im not obsessive about cleaning my guns. I like them like my martinis and my women....a little dirty.....

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    Member Array bullet183's Avatar
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    My number one criteria is whether its the right thing to do or not. If it is the morally right thing to do I will act. If it isnt I wont. I am not a lawyer nor do I carry one but if it is the right thing to do I am willing to accept the consequences. I dont discriminate between my loved ones or yours and I hope none of you would either. JMO
    M1911A1 and rotorhead1026 like this.

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    Member Array buckwheatpaul's Avatar
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    Great video.....he was quick to point out that you might beat the criminal rap....but the civil litigation can eat you alive. He is right when he says that you dont know how you will react until you are put into that situation. I have carried since 1974 when my L.E. started and I think his advise is spot on.....the only thing that I would add is if you carry you need to carry some type of insurance to protect you if you are ever involved in a deadly force situation.
    M1911A1 likes this.

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    Senior Member Array pskys2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    Which is all wholly responsible and appropriate, but it sort of puts a kink into the oft-repeated arguments, like "If there had only been one good guy there with a gun, the bad guy could have been stopped" and "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" and other such arguments about how good guys with guns would really take bite out of crime.

    This is the reason we aren't making a huge dent in stopping crime or lowering crime rates like pro gun carry folks say should be happening. Where we are making a significant impact is in protecting ourselves and our loved ones, which is infinitely more important than numbers about rates.
    Yep the Legal Issues weigh very heavily in a not me scenario. My boss once said if someone went postal at work he'd run to me. I told he'd play hell catching me I wouldn't shoot anyone for him.

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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Another thing I think about is that if the victim you are thinking of defending is an adult, most of the time, they have chosen to not have the tools and abilities to defend themselves. So if they don't care enough to defend themselves, how did it become my job? Also, if the roles were reversed, it's obvious they couldn't come to my rescue.

    That might sound cold, but it is akin to the law of jungle.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    Member Array alabamaguy's Avatar
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    I have CCW Safe insurance. The plan covering civil & criminal is $499/year, the criminal only is $149 for vets. I have only the later, but the extra $350/year might bring peace of mind. If the moral decision is to engage to help another, you will have someone in your corner for the next years as the family comes after you regardless of whether you saved lives or not. There are other insurers out there. I list these prices only to pass on a sense of cost if you have not already investigated.
    Gun Toting Fire Breathing Liberal

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    Member Array giz5792's Avatar
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    The example he uses of the jogger coming upon the scene with the guy on top of the little girl really puts it into perspective. You come upon a situation, from what you see in front of you, someone is in trouble, in reality, it could be a father trying to get fire ants off his daughter, it could be a parent taking an unruly child out of a store, not an obduction. It's a judgement call, and one you'll have to live with.

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    Senior Member Array ButtShot14's Avatar
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    Perhaps I got the wrong impression from watching the vid. My take was you should never use your weapon to defend yourself or anyone else. My gosh, you WILL get sued. That would be terrible, so don't take a chance and use your gun. I don't know, maybe I got the wrong idea about it.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giz5792 View Post
    The example he uses of the jogger coming upon the scene with the guy on top of the little girl really puts it into perspective. You come upon a situation, from what you see in front of you, someone is in trouble, in reality, it could be a father trying to get fire ants off his daughter, it could be a parent taking an unruly child out of a store, not an obduction. It's a judgement call, and one you'll have to live with.
    In both of those hypotheticals, shooting would not be my first choice. As you point out, it may not be what it seems. But also, there is the chance of hitting the child with the shot. I think there are verbal challenges, H2H and LTL options that might be more appropriate until you know what's going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by ButtShot14 View Post
    Perhaps I got the wrong impression from watching the vid. My take was you should never use your weapon to defend yourself or anyone else. My gosh, you WILL get sued. That would be terrible, so don't take a chance and use your gun. I don't know, maybe I got the wrong idea about it.
    I didn't take it that way. I took it to say two things: First, if you shoot, just know there are going to be repercussions, perhaps serious ones. Those repercussions may be financial, legal and/or emotional. Just be aware of the gravity of that. And second, that means don't shoot unless you have to. Just being legally allowed to shoot doesn't always mean you have to. If you really have to, shoot and don't hesitate. But if you can figure a way not to shoot and still stay safe, it might be something to consider.
    giz5792, M1911A1 and ButtShot14 like this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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