Denny's murder; compliance doesn't always work

Denny's murder; compliance doesn't always work

This is a discussion on Denny's murder; compliance doesn't always work within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here's a recent example of compliance failing when it comes to staying safe from armed criminals. Two people, one being compliant after being ordered to ...

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 28
Like Tree141Likes

Thread: Denny's murder; compliance doesn't always work

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    NoVA
    Posts
    3,742

    Denny's murder; compliance doesn't always work

    Here's a recent example of compliance failing when it comes to staying safe from armed criminals. Two people, one being compliant after being ordered to the ground, and the other inadvertently opening the restaurant door and holding it open for the criminals as they left, were shot. The gentleman who kindly held the door open for strangers died from his injuries.

    If you have anti-gun people in your life who say "just comply" and think that's good enough to live, show them this (among other similar documented stories). Complying may be a necessary strategy for survival when someone has surprise and initiative on their side, but wait your turn and when opportunity arises shoot them before they shoot you. Just because they haven't shot yet does not mean they're not going to.

    Here's an extract of one of the initial Prince William County, VA, incident reports:

    Homicide Investigation – On December 26 at 2:25AM, officers responded to the Denny's located at 8201 Sudley Road in Manassas (20109) to investigate an armed robbery. The investigation revealed that two armed suspects entered the Denny's where one of the men brandished a handgun while the second suspect was armed with a baton. The men ordered the patrons of the restaurant and employees to the ground while demanding their cell phones and wallets. The men further demanded money from the business. As the suspects were leaving, the suspect armed with a handgun shot a 34-year-old man who was being cooperative while sitting on the ground as initially demanded. The suspects also encountered a second male victim, who was walking into the Denny's and unknowingly held the door for the suspects as they exited. The suspect armed with the baton struck the victim in the head then the second suspect shot the victim. The suspects then fled on foot. Officers, including a police K-9, and troopers from the Virginia State Police searched for the suspects who were not located. Officers rendered first-aid to the victims until rescue personnel arrived on scene. Both victims were transported to area hospitals where the second victim, identified as Yusuf OZGUR, 56, of Manassas, died as a result of his injuries. Mr. OZGUR worked for a food delivery service and was at the Denny's to pick-up a to-go order. The first victim, who was dining at the establishment with other parties, was treated for serious injuries and is expected to survive. There was a total of 23 persons at the restaurant during the incident, including employees and patrons. No money or property was taken from the business. In partnership with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a $10,000 reward has been offered for any information leading to the arrest and conviction of the individuals in connection to this incident. More information will be released when available. The investigation continues.

    Suspect Descriptions:
    Two black males, late teens-early 20s, 5'10"-6'0", 180lbs
    Last seen wearing all black or dark colored clothing
    Security camera images of the masked criminals were circulated locally, and there were a lot of rightfully angry people. Fortunately a lot of tips, probably helped by a $10K reward, led to identifying and arresting the murderers.

    Arrested on December 29:
    Jordan ANDERSON, 22, of 11165 Stagestone Way in Manassas
    Ryan Thomas WALKER, 22, of 43491 Interval St in Chantilly
    Ride hard, shoot straight, always speak the truth

  2. #2
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    9,960
    To trust in the decency or good sense of a person who threatens murder should be a tactic of last resort.
    "Lots of ways to help people. Sometimes heal patients; sometimes shoot dangerous people. Either way helps."
    - Dr. Mordin Solus

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    SW MN
    Posts
    1,485
    Learned that lesson in my teens. Trust is reserved for those worthy of it.
    Anyone threatening violence has shown themselves unworthy of my trust.

    I'll stop there...
    graydude, BCC73, M1911A1 and 8 others like this.
    Democracy:
    Two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
    Freedom:
    A well armed lamb contesting the vote.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array kukla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Bradshaw Mountains, Arizona
    Posts
    1,889
    two things that never work when it comes to thugs........................compliance & appeasement.
    "I plan ahead. That way, I don't have to do anything right now!"

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    NoVA
    Posts
    3,742
    Incidentally, these two had been robbing stores and customers late at night for a few days and had been recorded with similar tactics and clothing. This wasn't their first attack, but they escalated to shooting and beating this time.
    Ride hard, shoot straight, always speak the truth

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    The Florida Twilight Zone
    Posts
    32,230
    Compliance always results in forcible felony.
    gatorbait51, Bad Bob and airslot like this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array CommonCents's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    1,083
    If someone is irrational enough to commit armed robbery, they are irrational enough to shoot. That's whats hard for everyday people who think rationally, its hard to anticipate or process the concept of irrational behavior.

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    17,690
    I have come to that conclusion a long time ago.

    Trusting the benevolence of a man threatening you with deadly force is a game for fools.
    I fully intend to render such an offender to the nearest icebox.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
    -Jeff Cooper

    “ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
    -Joe Foss

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,935
    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    Here's a recent example of compliance failing when it comes to staying safe from armed criminals. Two people, one being compliant after being ordered to the ground, and the other inadvertently opening the restaurant door and holding it open for the criminals as they left, were shot. The gentleman who kindly held the door open for strangers died from his injuries.

    If you have anti-gun people in your life who say "just comply" and think that's good enough to live, show them this (among other similar documented stories). Complying may be a necessary strategy for survival when someone has surprise and initiative on their side, but wait your turn and when opportunity arises shoot them before they shoot you. Just because they haven't shot yet does not mean they're not going to.

    Here's an extract of one of the initial Prince William County, VA, incident reports:



    Security camera images of the masked criminals were circulated locally, and there were a lot of rightfully angry people. Fortunately a lot of tips, probably helped by a $10K reward, led to identifying and arresting the murderers.

    Arrested on December 29:
    Jordan ANDERSON, 22, of 11165 Stagestone Way in Manassas
    Ryan Thomas WALKER, 22, of 43491 Interval St in Chantilly
    I followed up on this story this morning.

    In Virginia, robbery is one of the five felonies for which a deadly force response is justifiable. Whether or not the robber is armed makes no difference. As for the case in question, or any case like it, the moment a weapon is presented one can respond immediately with their own weapon. No shouts of "drop it" or "hands up" or "on the floor". You are justified to open fire immediately.

    Situations may well dictate one's response, as well as some other considerations, but robbery, especially armed robbery, opens the door for immediate rounds to target.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    6,934
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    In Virginia, robbery is one of the five felonies for which a deadly force response is justifiable.
    What are the other four? I can guess, but if there is a list...
    gatorbait51, airslot and GpTom like this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,935
    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    What are the other four? I can guess, but if there is a list...
    The five are robbery, burglary, arson, rape, and murder.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    6,934
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    The five are robbery, burglary, arson, rape, and murder.
    Makes sense. I would like to read the reference if you have it. I'm curious about the limits of the first two. My questions are:
    • Does it have to be armed robbery? Or could you shoot if some guy said, "Give me your wallet, or I will knock you out?"
    • Does the burglary have to be in a house or building you own? And do you have to be in that space or can you be outside it looking in, like an out-building?
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    NoVA
    Posts
    3,742
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    The five are robbery, burglary, arson, rape, and murder.
    Is there a reference you can point us to on this? I was looking at handgunlaw.us, the VCDL pages, and searches on the VA code LIS server and didn't really find much useful info on justifiable homicide in VA code.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Ride hard, shoot straight, always speak the truth

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,935
    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    Is there a reference you can point us to on this? I was looking at handgunlaw.us, the VCDL pages, and searches on the VA code LIS server and didn't really find much useful info on justifiable homicide in VA code.
    An attorney I know who used to hold seminars on Virginia law and the use of deadly force. I can probably dig out my papers on this if necessary. He was well schooled in the subject.
    Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; December 30th, 2019 at 09:39 PM.
    graydude and gatorbait51 like this.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array forester58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,593
    Look at some of the talk in that thread where the South American(?) guy just drew and put one in the temple of the armed robber standing next to him. To me that is a good shoot, over, done, wrap it up.
    I remember an elderly neighbor when I lived in the sticks who had a young dog who killed some of the neighbors chickens. He shot that dog and when I asked him why he said:"once a dog gets a taste of killing there is little else to be done".
    That is how I feel about "people" like these two.
    Working for a few years in detention did not alter my perception one bit.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •