Have You Ever Had To Draw Your Firearm In Self Defense? - Have You Had To Fire It? - Page 32

Have You Ever Had To Draw Your Firearm In Self Defense? - Have You Had To Fire It?

This is a discussion on Have You Ever Had To Draw Your Firearm In Self Defense? - Have You Had To Fire It? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Gun Drawing...

View Poll Results: Have you ever had to draw or shoot your weapon in self-defense?

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  • Never had to draw or fire

    1,155 72.64%
  • Draw only

    324 20.38%
  • Draw and fire

    111 6.98%
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Thread: Have You Ever Had To Draw Your Firearm In Self Defense? - Have You Had To Fire It?

  1. #466
    Member Array crstrode's Avatar
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    Gun Drawing

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  2. #467
    Member Array Morbidrealities's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    I dont' either anymore, just relaying a story and how dumb people can be when "displaying " a gun to someone in order to try to initimidate them, and that it's not going to work well with some people (like off duty or plains clothes LEO's, or even armed civilians ). I don't think that display is ever wise to do. It's one reason it's not wise.

    I have done things I know most people wouldn't, but that was the point of doing them ..... they were totally unexpected by that person too. Which got them off their game and gave me an advantage. I've coached for about 28 - 29 yrs, and believe me .... I can yell when someone's 110 yrds away and they will hear me over the yelling / cheering crowd. LOL. I have jumped out of a car and yelled at someone asking them what their issue was, and they suddenly didn't have one. I think I shocked them, and that they didn't expect any of that .... let alone how loud I can yell .... which also alerts a lot of other people ... who are now going to pay attention. They don't want people paying attention.

    What if , you displayed your gun, he took it badly and then pulled a gun ? What then ? My bet, if you are still walking afterwards, you'ld be the one taken to jail because you were the first to introduce the threat of a deadly weapon. The most they are going to see then , is he was doing property damage .... and that didn't justify the use of deadly force.
    The fact he exited his vehicle with a baseball bat and was kicking and punching my vehicle with a baseball bat still in one hand was more than enough cause for me to draw my weapon. I in fact didn't completely draw and I didn't half draw to brandish, only to prepare. The fact that he saw it was just a by product of me getting prepared. The officers that arrived said I did nothing wrong, so I'll take their words over yours. I am not getting out of my vehicle and jumping at someone while they're holding a bat. I don't care what voice of authority you have, that's dangerous to the extreme and frankly, that's ridiculous. I'm sorry, but I disagree with everything you've said.

  3. #468
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbidrealities View Post
    The fact he exited his vehicle with a baseball bat and was kicking and punching my vehicle with a baseball bat still in one hand was more than enough cause for me to draw my weapon. I in fact didn't completely draw and I didn't half draw to brandish, only to prepare. The fact that he saw it was just a by product of me getting prepared. The officers that arrived said I did nothing wrong, so I'll take their words over yours. I am not getting out of my vehicle and jumping at someone while they're holding a bat. I don't care what voice of authority you have, that's dangerous to the extreme and frankly, that's ridiculous. I'm sorry, but I disagree with everything you've said.
    You didn't get what I was saying.... with what went on .... I'm sure they did say that to you . But read what I said .... if he had seen you with a gun, and drawn his own gun in self-defense.... it would have been arguable, that you first introduced a deadly weapon into the equation... and in some places, may have no argument of self -defense. Here, if you do ANYTHING that escalates the situation or introduce a gun when the DA thinks you shouldn't have ... per the laws you cannot use a self-defense argument here.

    So, just carrying a baseball bat, I seriously doubt you would win a self-defense argument or that in anyway "automatically" justified you pulling a gun. Not unless he was using as a weapon toward you , attempting to, etc...... and THEN if you drew your gun, you would be ok.

    I just mentioned things that I have done to throw people off their game and catching them off guard while doing it and often works. It's not a do A, then B , then C. in most situations. I don't expect that what I do or have done will work for you. But, I can say what has worked for me or things I have done that have worked. Don't really care if you would do it or not. Yelling ... and doing what they don't expect you to do, is not necessarily "dangerous" ... blah blah blah . I think you make a lot of assumptions, that are often made by people who haven't been in a lot of situations and are inexperienced at handling them, and that's ok, it defines most CC holders. But when you carry ... a DA is not going to read your mind and what you think they would surely understand your intent... don't plan on it. A lot of people are sitting in prisons because ... "that's not what I meant" . All a DA has to do is give a plausible counter argument as to what your intent was, and what you think everyone would understand your intent as being, is now totally questionable. Brandishing, is all about "intent" ... and what a "reasonable" person would see it being... not your opinion, theirs.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

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  5. #469
    Member Array Morbidrealities's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    You didn't get what I was saying.... with what went on .... I'm sure they did say that to you . But read what I said .... if he had seen you with a gun, and drawn his own gun in self-defense.... it would have been arguable, that you first introduced a deadly weapon into the equation... and in some places, may have no argument of self -defense. Here, if you do ANYTHING that escalates the situation or introduce a gun when the DA thinks you shouldn't have ... per the laws you cannot use a self-defense argument here.

    So, just carrying a baseball bat, I seriously doubt you would win a self-defense argument or that in anyway "automatically" justified you pulling a gun. Not unless he was using as a weapon toward you , attempting to, etc...... and THEN if you drew your gun, you would be ok.

    I just mentioned things that I have done to throw people off their game and catching them off guard while doing it and often works. It's not a do A, then B , then C. in most situations. I don't expect that what I do or have done will work for you. But, I can say what has worked for me or things I have done that have worked. Don't really care if you would do it or not. Yelling ... and doing what they don't expect you to do, is not necessarily "dangerous" ... blah blah blah . I think you make a lot of assumptions, that are often made by people who haven't been in a lot of situations and are inexperienced at handling them, and that's ok, it defines most CC holders. But when you carry ... a DA is not going to read your mind and what you think they would surely understand your intent... don't plan on it. A lot of people are sitting in prisons because ... "that's not what I meant" . All a DA has to do is give a plausible counter argument as to what your intent was, and what you think everyone would understand your intent as being, is now totally questionable. Brandishing, is all about "intent" ... and what a "reasonable" person would see it being... not your opinion, theirs.
    I would argue that a bat is a deadly weapon and do so successfully in Texas. A bat, by legal definition, is a deadly weapon if used during a crime, btw. I did not introduce a deadly weapon, the other guy did. This wasn't a case of him having a baseball bat in his hands while walking home from the diamond. He exited his vehicle with it, made numerous threats of violence with it ( I'm going to kill you, beat the crud out of you, put you in the hospital). I'm being rather polite with what was said. Your argument about him perhaps possibly pulling a firearm himself is kind wishy washy. There are no guarantees that any criminal committing a crime won't pull a firearm once they see yours. I had a valid and legitimate concern for my physical safety. In Texas I could have completely drawn my weapon and pointed it at the man without legal repercussion under these circumstances. Even if Castle Doctrine wasn't the law I had little to no opportunity to retreat. I was quite literally boxed in my vehicle, with a man threatening me with a baseball bat beating on my vehicle. There were witnesses to this as well. If the guy didn't have a bat and was not beating on my car and just yelling and screaming, even making threats, that's a different situation. I'd not have felt threatened or concerned for my well being and I'd never have even considered my firearm as a viable option.

    I get what you're saying, I really do, but I believe it's a situation you had to be in to fully appreciate. I'm not just some every day civilian either. I've served combat tours and know how to defend myself from a physical attacker better than most. When I say I was concerned for my physical safety that's not an overstatement, that's the truth. A firearm is a force multiplier. He brought a bat and I have zero legal obligation in Texas to reach under my seat for a crowbar to make it equal force on force. He was getting more agitated with every blow to my vehicle and it was not a leap of assumption that he would continue to raise his level of aggression. Could I have sat there until bashed my window in and possibly taken me out of the fight before I had the chance to draw, or bashed my window in and left me no option other than be beaten or to shoot him? Sure, I could have.

    Just an FYI, the man was arrested that day at his home. He was charged and convicted of Felony Menacing (because he had the bat) and Felony Criminal Mischief for the damages to my vehicle.
    The fact that he saw my firearm was brought up and dismissed as self defense.

    I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but they don't teach LEO enough about the law. We see it time and time again where an officer with the best of intentions, doesn't know the laws he's supposed to enforce. If that's the way you feel, and you were the responding officer, I may have been arrested and that doesn't make me feel too good.

  6. #470
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbidrealities View Post
    I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but they don't teach LEO enough about the law. We see it time and time again where an officer with the best of intentions, doesn't know the laws he's supposed to enforce. If that's the way you feel, and you were the responding officer, I may have been arrested and that doesn't make me feel too good.
    You are now adding statements and facts, that I didn't see you post before if you did. But I wanted to get the point across.... that someone with a bat in their hand ... and then doing personal property damage, does not mean in most places it's OK to pull a gun or will be seen as self-defense if they have not threaten or attempted to use it (great bodily harm or death) .... and can get people in some serious problems. Especially if the other person responds to seeing their gun, by drawing theirs.

    Again ... if they are doing property damage (no personal threats, actions, etc) and a person pulls a gun here, and then they draw theirs.... the first person to draw the gun may have some serious issues to deal with. Under out laws, if you provoked OR escalated the situation, you cannot argue self-defense.

    Quite familiar with the laws here, court cases, etc. Most LEO's know the laws quite well. There are always some exceptions.

    There are at least 3 cases I can think of where someone's car was being beat to death by someone with a bat or breaking into it, and the car owner confronted them , then they were shot by the car owner. The car owner's are all doing life in prison for murder.
    Bigmoney1200 likes this.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  7. #471
    Member Array txpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Quite familiar with the laws here, court cases, etc. Most LEO's know the laws quite well. There are always some exceptions.
    Just for a little clarity as it applies to Texas... Under the Texas Penal code, the use of deadly force is allowed:
    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force;
    and goes on to say:
    (b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
    (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:
    (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied
    habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
    Also, an earlier section of the code clarifies that the presentation of a weapon does not constitute deadly force.
    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
    OD* and Morbidrealities like this.

  8. #472
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpilot View Post
    Just for a little clarity as it applies to Texas... Under the Texas Penal code, the use of deadly force is allowed: and goes on to say:
    Also, an earlier section of the code clarifies that the presentation of a weapon does not constitute deadly force.
    So what ? I lived in Texas, but this is a national oriented forum, and I personally .... hope people don't just buy what's said some times as applying freely to them in their State, who's laws are not the same. You were saying things as a BLANKET STATMENT ... and they are not applicable to in many cases and many States. That is part of my whole point.... what applies locally for someone, or to someone in a particular state ... does NOT mean that is the generally true of all States.

    And, you are assuming that the DA , etc. is going to agree with your view of things. Often, they don't. They get credit for the convictions they get.

    And again..... there is the argument any DA would use .... "reasonable person" ..... and that may not agree with you no matter what you thought, it is the argument would a reaonsable person think the same thing as you did ? A lot of people thought so, until they were found guilty .

    You add more info as you go to along ... to justify your actions .... and I'm talking in general confrontations and circumstances.... and how that may not go all that well for someone.

    An example .... a guy drew his weapon because a guy pulled a knife and threatened him in a bar. That stopped the person from attacking him. But, he did not shoot him. All the way thru the State Supreme Court the person with the gun was found "GUILTY" of threatening someone with a gun. The LAW covered him if he shot him, but they ruled that if he only displayed the gun to discourage the attacker ... he was not covered and the way the law was written he was guilty.

    There are "fine" lines out there and there are DA's who can argue semantics ... and what you think everyone would read and take it the same way you do, has nothing to do with reality and how DA's can twist it around and then convince a Judge or Jury of.

    What the Legislature did in the above case was quickly change the wording of the law, get it passed and signed by Governor, and made it retroactive. That way , he could be released from prison. Again, it does NOT matter what you think .... it's what "they" think that matters .... DA , Jury / Judge, etc. and whether it was reasonable or not.

    You argue that he threatened you with the baseball bat ? Was it all talk .... or he do something that would show he really intended too ? Arguable you had justification if it was all "talk" and some witness thinks you over-reacted. Did you pull your gun before he said that ? PROVE IT .... got any proof ??? Or , everyone supposed to assume you are telling the truth, vs just trying to save your tailend ? If you can't prove it, you'll lose the argument in court.

    There are a lot of "IF's" in every situations, and it can go either way sometimes. I've heard people say, why would anything think I would do that, I wouldn't do that ..... as they are sitting in jail. You have to remember, LEO's, DA's, Judge's, etc. are all accustomed to everyone lieing to them. Why do you think you are special and they will automatically believe you ? Sounds like in your case , you may have witnesses and if you did that's good... but there are often no witnesses.

    It's a slippery slope.
    Morbidrealities likes this.
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  9. #473
    Member Array txpilot's Avatar
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    Eagleks, I can't really follow your post where you quoted me. You say "you..." but it appears in most of it you are referring to Morbidrealities. As for Texas, when the penal code says "is presumed reasonable", that means that the jury doesn't get to make that decision - it is a given and not a reasonable person standard in this case. I know it's a national forum, and I wasn't addressing anything nationally or as a BLANKET STATEMENT - it was clearly stated to be TEXAS, just relaying what Texas law says since the discussion I was responding to was between you and Morbidrealities.

    I'm not sure even what you're referring to about the legislature changing the wording of the law - your comments seem to wander between my post and those by others.

    I'll just leave this here.
    Morbidrealities likes this.

  10. #474
    VIP Member Array Rhinoman's Avatar
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    I've drawn and pointed at someone once and just displayed it once. I've only shot at people as part of my AF Career.

    The first time I drew my pistol I was living in Louisiana and my upstairs neighbor was fighting with her ex. He fired a pistol at her and dragged her into the parking lot and tried to force her into a car. I went outside and pointed my pistol at him and told him to freeze. He turned toward me and fired three quick rounds at me and then went back to trying to kidnap his ex. Her mother was wrestling with the bad guy and it was in the middle of a large apartment complex. I decided that it was too risky to fire back, so I went and got my truck and blocked him in. By that time the police were arriving.

    One time I was out in the middle of Black water State park and two very drunk rednecks were trying to destroy a car. They were sideswiping trees and jumping it over ditches. A few minutes later they came walking into my campsite and wanted me to give them a ride to the main road. They explained that one of them had an argument with his girlfriend and had decided to destroy her car. They had managed to wrap it around a tree. I refused and told them to beat it. As soon as it got dark I heard them coming back. One of them had a 4 foot long branch in his hands like a baseball bat and they walked up to my car. I placed my SP101 on the dash and they dropped the stick and continued walking.
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  11. #475
    Senior Member Array Fallsrider's Avatar
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    Have You Ever Had To Draw Your Firearm In Self Defense? - Have You Had To Fire It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhinoman View Post
    ....The first time I drew my pistol I was living in Louisiana and my upstairs neighbor was fighting with her ex. He fired a pistol at her and dragged her into the parking lot and tried to force her into a car. I went outside and pointed my pistol at him and told him to freeze. He turned toward me and fired three quick rounds at me and then went back to trying to kidnap his ex. Her mother was wrestling with the bad guy and it was in the middle of a large apartment complex. I decided that it was too risky to fire back, so I went and got my truck and blocked him in. By that time the police were arriving....
    Real life hardly ever happens like the movies, does it? In the movies, you would have had the perfect shot, and you would have dropped the BG in his tracks. Real life is usually much more messy and complicated. Sounds like you made the right decision.

  12. #476
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    +1 ^^^

  13. #477
    Member Array Morbidrealities's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    You are now adding statements and facts, that I didn't see you post before if you did. But I wanted to get the point across.... that someone with a bat in their hand ... and then doing personal property damage, does not mean in most places it's OK to pull a gun or will be seen as self-defense if they have not threaten or attempted to use it (great bodily harm or death) .... and can get people in some serious problems. Especially if the other person responds to seeing their gun, by drawing theirs.

    Again ... if they are doing property damage (no personal threats, actions, etc) and a person pulls a gun here, and then they draw theirs.... the first person to draw the gun may have some serious issues to deal with. Under out laws, if you provoked OR escalated the situation, you cannot argue self-defense.

    Quite familiar with the laws here, court cases, etc. Most LEO's know the laws quite well. There are always some exceptions.

    There are at least 3 cases I can think of where someone's car was being beat to death by someone with a bat or breaking into it, and the car owner confronted them , then they were shot by the car owner. The car owner's are all doing life in prison for murder.
    My original post specifically stated he exited his vehicle with a baseball bat and was beating on my vehicle while threatening me. I didn't believe that further clarification was needed. My apologies...

    For what it's worth, I'm not going to argue semantics with myself when I feel I, or god forbid, my family, may be in great physical danger. Honestly the only thing I was thinking of at the time was, can I draw completely while moving away from the window if he swings and is anyone else in my FoF. The LAST thing I was thinking is "I sure hope the cameras here are working and that the witnesses are going to see it the way I see it".

    Also, this wasn't a case of someone beating on my car without me in it. I haven't heard of a case like what you're talking about happening in Texas except for people who shoot someone breaking into their unoccupied vehicle. If that was the case, I'd have stepped back and called the police. I am not worried about stuff. I was fully in the vehicle with him outside, kicking and punching it. He also happened to have a bat in his hands and was threatening me. I am wholeheartedly confused as to why you'd even be under the assumption that I was in the wrong.

  14. #478
    VIP Member Array Rhinoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallsrider View Post
    Real life hardly ever happens like the movies, does it? In the movies, you would have had the perfect shot, and you would have dropped the BG in his tracks. Real life is usually much more messy and complicated. Sounds like you made the right decision.
    In the movies he would have dropped his pistol and surrendered.

    Two of my brothers were cops. One of them rolled up on a domestic battery situation and the husband was threatening the wife with a gun. My brother pulled his service pistol and ordered the man to drop his gun. The guy responded by advancing on my brother yelling "kill me. kill me". They finally got him calmed down and he surrendered, but it really makes you realize that simply pulling your weapon won't always stop a fight and may actually escalate it.
    Retired USAF E-8. 74-96.

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  15. #479
    VIP Member Array Rhinoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbidrealities View Post
    My original post specifically stated he exited his vehicle with a baseball bat and was beating on my vehicle while threatening me. I didn't believe that further clarification was needed. My apologies...

    For what it's worth, I'm not going to argue semantics with myself when I feel I, or god forbid, my family, may be in great physical danger. Honestly the only thing I was thinking of at the time was, can I draw completely while moving away from the window if he swings and is anyone else in my FoF. The LAST thing I was thinking is "I sure hope the cameras here are working and that the witnesses are going to see it the way I see it".

    Also, this wasn't a case of someone beating on my car without me in it. I haven't heard of a case like what you're talking about happening in Texas except for people who shoot someone breaking into their unoccupied vehicle. If that was the case, I'd have stepped back and called the police. I am not worried about stuff. I was fully in the vehicle with him outside, kicking and punching it. He also happened to have a bat in his hands and was threatening me. I am wholeheartedly confused as to why you'd even be under the assumption that I was in the wrong.
    If I'm in my car and someone starts beating on it with a pipe or bat, I'm going to pull my pistol. Things can get ugly really fast in a situation like that. I'd rather be explaining my case to the DA than take a baseball bat to the melon.
    Retired USAF E-8. 74-96.

    An election is coming. Universal peace is declared, and the foxes have a sincere interest in prolonging the lives of the poultry. ~George Eliot,

  16. #480
    Member Array Morbidrealities's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhinoman View Post
    If I'm in my car and someone starts beating on it with a pipe or bat, I'm going to pull my pistol. Things can get ugly really fast in a situation like that. I'd rather be explaining my case to the DA than take a baseball bat to the melon.
    At the time he was kicking and beating my vehicle with his free hand. Since he hadn't yet used the bat on my car but was waving it around. I half drew my firearm in preparation, unintentionally letting him see it and he took off. Evidently this was bad according to some people.

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