Pulled my weapon today.. got into trouble... kind of.. - Page 4

Pulled my weapon today.. got into trouble... kind of..

This is a discussion on Pulled my weapon today.. got into trouble... kind of.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by cal44 beebee, you are right. Some posts seem a bit unnecessarily hostile. In any case, thank you for starting this thread. While ...

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Thread: Pulled my weapon today.. got into trouble... kind of..

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cal44 View Post
    beebee, you are right. Some posts seem a bit unnecessarily hostile.

    In any case, thank you for starting this thread.

    While some of us may make posts that are a bit too aggressive, in fact all of us have something to learn and none of us knows everything.

    I picked up a few ideas reading the thread that I hadn't thought of before. So you did me (and others) a service by starting it.

    This reminds me of one time on another forum when I asked a simple question about a Ruger I had, and someone posted that if I didn't know the answer to that I shouldn't even be allowed to go to a shooting range.

    I found that amusing.

    How does one learn, besides asking questions?
    Thank you cal44, your reply was reassuring.. Again, I was just taking for granted something I should have not taken for granted, and I assumed... Not a good thing to be sure.. I have only had this particular gun for one week, and when we bought it as I stated, we took out an LCP Custom to compare it to with the owners permission right at the counter and demagged it, and made sure there wasn't a round in the chamber which of course there was not as the slide was not pulled back.. This was at a well known store with a big following that has been here 40 years, and the owner never batted an eye.. however he knew who we were. I will NEVER make the same mistake.. It was dumb, even though as I tried to state here, I never even got the gun out.. It was never out of the holster... I asked and started reaching for it at the same time which was probably what startled the owner.. It won't be repeated.. However, now I am "gunshy "[ like that? gunshy] about owning up to any mistakes or asking questions that might make me seem to be lacking in any way.. I can deal with constructive criticism, in fact I need it, as does anyone in any endevour in life.. However I was ill prepared for the level of nastiness and hostility shown by many here.. Not really what i signed up for.... I guess you don't share your weak spots or mistakes on a public internet forum.. thanks again for the understanding and reassuring post... bob

  2. #47
    Member Array jumperj's Avatar
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    I'm afraid you're not gonna get much sympathy here Bob.. I'm glad you learned that you can't assume LGS's are all the same.
    I still think you should always carry loaded and chambered. Even into the LGS.

    If someone wants to see your firearm then just go out to your vehicle, clear it, leave the action open and take it back in. But make sure it's ok first.

    The biggest criticism I see, and agree with, is on the safety of unholstering a loaded firearm. It only takes one time assuming it's not chambered. I'd rather assume and know it always is..

    As for carrying without a chambered round, you might as well have a rock in your pocket. If you were attacked, a BG could hit, stab or shoot you several times,(even after pulling your gun) before you could rack the slide. And that's if you still have the ability to do so...When milliseconds count, that's when you need a round ready to fire.

    I'm sorry if you're offended by all this bashing, but it appears as if you just don't take concealed carry seriously enough. We don't carry to show what we have. We carry to protect what we have. IMHO
    Ianthin likes this.

  3. #48
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    Carrying without a round chambered is an all around bad idea. Carrying in two different conditions at different times is just asking for trouble. IMO if you're OK with carrying chambered sometimes, you should do so all the time.
    jumperj, SteveMac and hotShot like this.
    I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people. I'm saying remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.

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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Wasp's Avatar
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    He's just trying to look out for his and his customers best interest, stores here feel the same way. They cant assume to know the gun handling practices of every person, not to mention not wanting to take a chance with a ND. Try to see it from that point of view.
    I have done it (after asking) from a gun owner I knew well when not many customers were present, but never assume it's okay.
    Ianthin likes this.
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  6. #50
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumperj View Post
    I'm afraid you're not gonna get much sympathy here Bob.. I'm glad you learned that you can't assume LGS's are all the same.
    I still think you should always carry loaded and chambered. Even into the LGS.

    If someone wants to see your firearm then just go out to your vehicle, clear it, leave the action open and take it back in. But make sure it's ok first.

    The biggest criticism I see, and agree with, is on the safety of unholstering a loaded firearm. It only takes one time assuming it's not chambered. I'd rather assume and know it always is..

    As for carrying without a chambered round, you might as well have a rock in your pocket. If you were attacked, a BG could hit, stab or shoot you several times,(even after pulling your gun) before you could rack the slide. And that's if you still have the ability to do so...When milliseconds count, that's when you need a round ready to fire.

    I'm sorry if you're offended by all this bashing, but it appears as if you just don't take concealed carry seriously enough. We don't carry to show what we have. We carry to protect what we have. IMHO
    No need for sympathy, and no expectation.. simple civility would be fine.... bob

  7. #51
    Member Array sierrajb's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I appreciate the honesty and openness of the OP, admitting he wasn't as wise as he should have been, and will try harder next time.
    I also appreciate the passion expressed by the critics of the OP. They seem to be attacking the carrying, not the character, of the OP. Carrying is a matter of life and death, and the OP certainly agrees with that.
    I, too, have learned much from this discussion, so kudos to everyone who's chimed in. Though no official "law" was broken (brandishing a firearm, disorderly conduct with a firearm, etc.), we all agree everyone can use a little polish on our skills and gun etiquette, regardless of the amount of experience we have.
    ...and that brings me to why I appreciate this forum. Bob, stay with us. We need your input and experiences. Critics, we need your expertise and experiences, too. Don't lighten up on any of us, but do understand we all need help in one area or another. Thanks for this thread!!
    jumperj and Erich1B like this.

  8. #52
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    I've done the same thing several times ..... even the shop owner asking me, "don't you carry a ......., you have it on you so that we can show it to this customer " ..

    Mine's always on me, always loaded and always one chambered. Period.


    However, I know the people in those gun shops and they know me well. And to some here who might disagree ....... I pull the mag while it's in the holster (easy enough to do ), then pull the gun out of the holster while keeping the muzzle toward the floor / ground and open it to expel the round in the chamber and lock it open. The floors are wood, not cement, etc. Typically, I'm the only one in the shop other than them, or very few people in there. Have never done it when they are "busy" and have more people in there.

    To me, it's no different then unloading any gun when someone else is around while doing it.

    In your case ..... I imagine that it's that the owner didn't know you, his brain didn't initially engage with what you were saying, and it then surprised him.

    Personally, I wouldn't do it if I didn't know them and they didn't know me. I wouldn't even go outside and unload it and come back in with it, I'm not disarming for them ..... especially if I didn't know the owner or people working there. I'm more likely to tell them they should one get one in if they plan to be trying to sell them and that I liked mine ... blah blah blah blah.

  9. #53
    Member Array JoeLiberty's Avatar
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    Soooo... something that nobody else pointed out. Part of the reason the guy was so rattled, is that he has to be worried about getting robbed (or killed) in his day-to-day. Foolish as it sounds, people do try to rob gun stores. Guns are high-value items. So when someone comes in, even if they were acting perfectly friendly, and then goes to pull a gun from their waistband or pocket, it is not unreasonable for the owner to assume for the moment that he is about to be held at gunpoint. I know a local LGS owner who, in the same situation, yelled STOP STOP STOP and put his hand on his own gun. Think about how a cop would react to such an action. Think about what happened to Philando Castille. "Yeah, I got a gun. Lemme show you...". Peoples words and actions prior to that moment don't really factor in, as the unscrupulous criminal element has no problem deceiving and distracting his prey before suddenly turning violent. Don't be offended. Certainly the employees of your big box stores are not reacting like that. And not all store owners would feel that way. But some do...
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  10. #54
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    I've had a similar situation I thought strange. It's definitely safety and etiquette but some folks are a little uptight about it. I brought my rifle into a local gunsmith shop in Colorado once to have some work done. Prior to handing it over I literally PULLED THE BOLT OUT of the rifle and set it on the counter first. Then I set the rifle down on the counter to show him the issue and the guy next to him was like "HEY, WATCH WHERE YOU POINT THAT DAMN MUZZLE" - even though he literally watched me remove the bolt and place it on the counter first, not to mention I never swung the muzzle towards them, it just wound up being laid down in his general direction.

    I just looked at the guy and said "Sorry, that's why I pulled the bolt out first" but he really didn't care that I had done that, so I just went ahead and (with a hint of annoyance) turned the rifle 10 degrees so it pointed away from him, which ironically left it pointing at all the customers in the store.

    I thought it absurd, considering as a gunsmith he should know it's impossible for the thing to fire without the damn bolt and firing pin in there, but some folks are just ridiculous about safety etiquette.
    cal44 likes this.

  11. #55
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    I read my previous post and realize that I came on too strong and passed judgement. Bob, I know it was personal and I do apologize for all of that! For myself, I feel very strongly about our 2nd Ammendment and our God given right to defend ourselves. Having jumped through the hoops and spending money (that I couldn't afford) to acquire these rights just sticks in my craw, and at least in NYS we are held to a higher standard. We can lose what we have overnight as the passage of the Safe Act was passed at night in less then 24 hours by a bunch of crooked democrats & republicans. That is where my anger should be directed, not at you. Again, I apologize!

  12. #56
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorker View Post
    I read my previous post and realize that I came on too strong and passed judgement. Bob, I know it was personal and I do apologize for all of that! For myself, I feel very strongly about our 2nd Ammendment and our God given right to defend ourselves. Having jumped through the hoops and spending money (that I couldn't afford) to acquire these rights just sticks in my craw, and at least in NYS we are held to a higher standard. We can lose what we have overnight as the passage of the Safe Act was passed at night in less then 24 hours by a bunch of crooked democrats & republicans. That is where my anger should be directed, not at you. Again, I apologize!
    No apology was needed or expected.. It is well appreciated however.. I learned a valuable lesson.. When it comes to firearms, NEVER ASSUME.. Just because I took out my CCW at a few places for various reason, and there was no issue, doesn't mean that in the next place you won't get shot by an owner that thinks you are drawing down on him to rob the place.. Lesson well learned.. Next time, I tell the store owner what I need, or would like to see, and then explain that I DO have the gun in question with me, would it be ok for me to remove the mag outside, check the chamber, etc and bring it in for him to look at for trade purposes, parts, grips, whatever... Either that or I carry it in my holsterto the store, and clear it and leave it locked in the car, before I enter the store.. When I discuss it I will never assume I will hear, "yeah no problem".. I will wait until I have a direct clear answer that can't be mistaken,and listen for any further instructions there might be... Stuff like this doesn't have to be set before me more than once. I learned a lot from this thread... bob

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array cal44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeLEO View Post
    I've had a similar situation I thought strange. It's definitely safety and etiquette but some folks are a little uptight about it. I brought my rifle into a local gunsmith shop in Colorado once to have some work done. Prior to handing it over I literally PULLED THE BOLT OUT of the rifle and set it on the counter first. Then I set the rifle down on the counter to show him the issue and the guy next to him was like "HEY, WATCH WHERE YOU POINT THAT DAMN MUZZLE" - even though he literally watched me remove the bolt and place it on the counter first, not to mention I never swung the muzzle towards them, it just wound up being laid down in his general direction.

    I just looked at the guy and said "Sorry, that's why I pulled the bolt out first" but he really didn't care that I had done that, so I just went ahead and (with a hint of annoyance) turned the rifle 10 degrees so it pointed away from him, which ironically left it pointing at all the customers in the store.

    I thought it absurd, considering as a gunsmith he should know it's impossible for the thing to fire without the damn bolt and firing pin in there, but some folks are just ridiculous about safety etiquette.
    I had the reverse problem one time.

    For a while in California when you went to pick up a gun after the 10 day waiting period, they gave you a little check test to see if you knew how to handle a gun.

    I went to pick up a new revolver, and the guy showed me how to load it (with a snap cap), and where to hold your finger if you weren't ready to fire (straight outside of the trigger guard).

    Then he gives me the gun, and tells me to dry fired it straight in front of me. Then just stood there right in front of me.

    I told him, no way would I dry fire a gun right into his belly. Asked him to step out of the way, or else I would move down the counter so I could point the gun into the block wall of the shop.

    Sheesh.

    I hope he doesn't screw up and leave a live round in a gun and get perforated.

    As for the guy complaining about the rifle pointing at him, I bet there are people out there who never handled a bolt action rifle or a revolver and really don't know it can't fire without the bolt. Some people were raised on black, plastic guns.

  14. #58
    Distinguished Member Array riverrambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    Ok, now that i got you here with my provocative thread title.. Here's what REALLY happened. You folks might find it interesting.

    My wife and I were in a small town in today.. We had to kill 1/2 hour before heading back to NY state , so we stopped at small local gun shop .. We both have our CC, and were both carrying as we always do these days.

    Started talking to the owner, seems like a nice enough guy, and i ask if he heard about the new Ruger LCP II which I was carrying in a pocket holster.. he said he had seen them online or something, and I asked if he would like to see mine,and i told him I had my Pa permit.. I started pulling the gun out and was going to remove the mag and hand the empty LCR II to him to check out.. He got this startled look and abruptly stopped me telling me I was not allowed ever to take a loaded gun from the holster , and that if i ever wanted to show him a gun again, I would have to bring it in unloaded and let him know about it.. the guy seemed pretty rattled and upset, and I felt really bad about it..

    I have been in several gun stores here in NY which is much more restrictive, as has my wife, and we have taken our guns out, de magged them right alongside salesmen/owners, and handed them over for comparison to other weapons, fitting for holsters, mags etc, and there was NEVER an issue or even a negative word.. Now I feel like I broke some sacred protocol that I was unaware of, and thinking I might be an unthinking and unsafe CCW ..
    Again, we have brought loaded weapons into several gun shops including big box stores, and tiny little one room shops, and de magged them right there with never a peep of angst.. Tell me honestly, were my actions bad form, or illegal??... I still feel bad for startling the poor guy, but I suppose I just figured most gun store owners saw guys pull concealed guns every day.. it NOT like I just pulled it without saying anything first... Perhaps because we weren't regulars?? any thoughts on this?.. did i do something wrong?... bob
    I certainly would understand his angst and I think you would also if you put yourself in his place. Number one, he is at High risk for an armed robbery, not just for cash but for guns. Number two, I would never allow anyone to draw a loaded weapon if they were standing in front of me, much less unload it. If you didn't step to the side when you unholstered, that was a serious mistake regardless if you got the go ahead or not. If you didn't wait for him to completely answer, another mistake. He may have instructed you what to do.
    The two times I needed to unholster and unload my gun, once at an ER and once at a gun shop, I simply said I need to unload my gun, how should I do it? So as others have said , use it as a learning experience. A small amount of common sense goes a long way.
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  15. #59
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrambler View Post
    I certainly would understand his angst and I think you would also if you put yourself in his place. Number one, he is at High risk for an armed robbery, not just for cash but for guns. Number two, I would never allow anyone to draw a loaded weapon if they were standing in front of me, much less unload it. If you didn't step to the side when you unholstered, that was a serious mistake regardless if you got the go ahead or not. If you didn't wait for him to completely answer, another mistake. He may have instructed you what to do.
    The two times I needed to unholster and unload my gun, once at an ER and once at a gun shop, I simply said I need to unload my gun, how should I do it? So as others have said , use it as a learning experience. A small amount of common sense goes a long way.
    You need to reread the OP.. I never got the gun or the holster out.. I asked if he would like to see it, and started to take the pocket holster out.. It never got that far, never even got it out.. Also my wife was much closer to him than I was.. I was off to the side about 6 feet and babbling away to him.... In any case I will never again assume anything.. probably won't even go into a gun store while carrying.. Probably makes more sense to just leave it outside.. the store owners are usually carrying, so its about as safe or safer than any other place of retail business, and no need for my CC there... bob

  16. #60
    Distinguished Member Array drmordo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    You need to reread the OP.. I never got the gun or the holster out.. I asked if he would like to see it, and started to take the pocket holster out.. It never got that far, never even got it out.. Also my wife was much closer to him than I was.. I was off to the side about 6 feet and babbling away to him.... In any case I will never again assume anything.. probably won't even go into a gun store while carrying.. Probably makes more sense to just leave it outside.. the store owners are usually carrying, so its about as safe or safer than any other place of retail business, and no need for my CC there... bob
    My LGS is in a pretty iffy neighborhood, and you have to park behind it in an area where someone could easily hide and jump you.

    So, I always carry when I'm there. Their sign says "no loaded weapons" and I take that to mean "unload guns that you are bringing in to sell or trade".

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