Handguns, Noise, Muzzle Flip, and Handgun Selection for Automobile Concealed Carry - Page 5

Handguns, Noise, Muzzle Flip, and Handgun Selection for Automobile Concealed Carry

This is a discussion on Handguns, Noise, Muzzle Flip, and Handgun Selection for Automobile Concealed Carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Has anyone else noticed the difference in handling say between a fixed barrel Walther PPK/s or the like, and a Glock, Sig, or Browning HP? ...

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  1. #61
    Member Array Glock.Man's Avatar
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    Has anyone else noticed the difference in handling say between a fixed barrel Walther PPK/s or the like, and a Glock, Sig, or Browning HP? Or compare the feel between a 1911 and a Beretta 92. I know the most punishing handgun for me to shoot is a .25 ACP Beretta 950 fixed barrel. I'd rather shoot a .40 all day than two boxes of .25 in that Beretta.

  2. #62
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    In a misspent youth I've fired off center fire handguns and an M1 Carbine from inside the passenger compartments of vehicles a few times. It's not something I would concern myself about if called upon to do so in self-defense.

    Of course I'm half deaf at this point.
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  3. #63
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    The data is in decibel ratings for common noise sources. Do the math. It is physiologically impossible not to suffer some inner ear damage at very high noise levels. It may be very little or catastrophic depending on the noise level, pressure and duration.
    Well, I'm just a dumb old diver. I'd want to see a scientific article that said that A) if you experienced auditory exclusion that B) you would still experience damaging effects and hearing loss when exposed to loud noise at the same time. Yes, it would seem to make sense that such an assumption would be correct, but without some actual data you can just call me a stupid sceptic. Of course, I don't believe in "global warming," "climate change" or whatever they want to call it this week, either.
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  5. #64
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    Originally Posted by SIGP250 Read the article. It doesn't say that you might not experience the phenomena of auditory exclusion under stress, rather it makes the point that if in a situation when your brain does seem to block the noise, temporarily, physical damage to hearing may still occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    Where's the data to back that up?
    There are some antidotal accounts of auditory exclusion phenomena. Some have been used as legal defense in police shootings, Some successful and other not. While I believe that under certain conditions persons may experience auditory exclusion, it does not occur in every shooting situation.

    There have been numerous studies and findings regarding causes of hearing loss. The military and VA recognize hearing loss due to loud impact noise as a most reported injury. A good amount of hearing loss goes unreported by military, LE and civilians alike. Also while certain types of trauma is obvious, some types of sensory hearing loss is related to the brain. While doctors have learned much about the brain and how it functions there is much that is [NOT] completely understood. Tinnitus (ear ringing) for example is brain related.

    I did search the internet and found some articles that may be of interest. I not to you maybe to others here.

    https://www.personaldefensenetwork.c...en-every-time/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_exclusion

    Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule" - Article - POLICE Magazine

    SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_hearing_loss

    VPC - Unintended Consequences - Chapter Four

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/vis...y-distortions/

    Types, Causes and Treatment | Hearing Loss Association of America

    __________________________________________________ _____________

    Recreational Firearm Noise Exposure

    Asymmetric Hearing Loss from "Shooter's Ear" Lee D. Hager Hearing & Hearing Loss Hearing Conservation/NIHL 347

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hearing-loss-now-a-military-epidemic/

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6028a4.htm

    War is Loud: Hearing Loss Most Common Veteran Injury - News21

    Shooting Sports and Hearing Loss: 'Bang, Bang. Youre Deaf!'

    https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001061.htm/











    Last edited by SIGP250; February 24th, 2017 at 08:55 PM. Reason: inserted [Not] - NOT completly understood
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    There are some antidotal accounts of auditory exclusion phenomena. Some have been used as legal defense in police shootings, Some successful and other not. While I believe that under certain conditions persons may experience auditory exclusion, it does not occur in every shooting situation.

    There have been numerous studies and findings regarding causes of hearing loss. The military and VA recognize hearing loss due to loud impact noise as a most reported injury. A good amount of hearing loss goes unreported by military, LE and civilians alike. Also while certain types of trauma is obvious, some types of sensory hearing loss is related to the brain. While doctors have learned much about the brain and how it functions there is much that is completely understood. Tinnitus (ear ringing) for example is brain related.

    [/FONT]
    You still miss my point. I am not saying hearing damage does not occur under ordinary shooting conditions, or other exposure to loud noise. I once went to a Beatles concert at Dodger stadium and my ears rang for an hour afterward from the girls screaming all around me. What I am saying is that I have not seen the proof that when auditory exclusion occurs, that hearing damage always occurs at the same time.
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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock.Man View Post
    When I stopped two would be home invaders at 2:00 AM in the morning I didn't go searching for the quietest gun. I chose my Glock 23 which is my normal carry gun. One thing I would recommend to all potential shooters is to fire your gun outside so you know what to expect in a life or death situation. Not everyone carrying comes from a police or military background, or even a hunting background.
    The noise is shocking and one of the most unrealistic portrayals on TV/in movies.

    Once at the range, side by side, I didnt have my ear protection on. The guy next to me shot his .45. WOW.

    (No, I have no idea why my muffs were off. They had been on, I went to the bench and did something, and came back without them. And I wouldnt normally take them off at the bench either. No idea, dont remember)

    I will say that I shoot black powder .45 lc rounds all the time and sometimes dont have my ear plugs in....not as loud as a live round but still loud...and I barely notice anymore.
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  8. #67
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    OP you say you reduced your car gun from a 27 to 26 but I don't see you listing the db for the .40. Is it listed and I just don't see it?
    I like the .40 .

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    You still miss my point. I am not saying hearing damage does not occur under ordinary shooting conditions, or other exposure to loud noise. I once went to a Beatles concert at Dodger stadium and my ears rang for an hour afterward from the girls screaming all around me. What I am saying is that I have not seen the proof that when auditory exclusion occurs, that hearing damage always occurs at the same time.
    It doesn't always occur. It is highly dependent on the situation. Hearing loss may be minimal if a person, usually a cop or soldier, shoots someone outdoors with his pistol fully extended. In other instances where shootings take place indoors in confined spaces or even outdoors in an alley where impact noise or reverberation becomes a contributing factor, a person is very likely to incur significant and often permanent hearing loss. Hearing loss is relative. It should not be construed to mean that gun fire will cause total deafness either, although it is possible.

    The fact that some claim to have experienced auditory exclusion during a shooting incident is not good for situational awareness and may also have side effects. That is Grant Cunningham's argument and what I would concur with.
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  10. #69
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    The fact that some claim to have experienced auditory exclusion during a shooting incident is not good for situational awareness and may also have side effects. That is Grant Cunningham's argument and what I would concur with.
    It may not be good for situational awareness, but I would be willing to wager money that to those whom it happens, they have no control over it. In one circumstance, my friend with LASO SWAT shot a guy who was walking up to his patrol car with a pistol pointed at him. In another circumstance, his partner was firing. Theory is great but I will rely on the experiences of those who have actually been through battle.
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erich1B View Post
    Not trying to flame you at all, but I personally would not feel good about leaving a loaded gun in my car when I'm not present.
    I look at it like this.. if a person is willing to use force and commit a felony to steal my gun, I don't really think it much matters if they took it from my car or my nightstand at home. I simply do not understand the moral superiority over venue. Property is property.. things get stolen. I have had one gun or another under the seat for 20 something years and I sleep just fine. If a person has laws that govern storage, I certainly support following the law to the letter. I don't have any such laws here and I avail myself of the freedom.
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  12. #71
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    I think people may be confusing auditory exclusion (the mind not recognizing the noise, or filtering it out as not needed) with sound waves not actually entering the ear canal and shaking up all those little parts in there.
    The noise may not register in your brain, but that doesn't stop the pressure waves from impacting the inner parts of your ear.
    It's that physical impact that causes the damage, not whether your brain recognizes it.

    Easiest analogy is when you get an injury like a bad cut but don't feel it at first. Your brain may not register it right away, but the physical damage will still be there (and you'll certainly feel it later).

    So yes, when my wife speaks my brain may filter it out, but there is no denying that the sound waves physically affected the parts of my ear that ulitmately cause my brain to translate the impulses as "sound".
    Even if she shouts at 135dB, I may still not "hear" it, but it WILL cause the physical damage.

    (Oops, forgot to mention to disregard aural reflex. Gunfire is too short in duration for that to be considered).
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    Speaking of which, how many of you guys have a Suppressor on your bedside [manner] gun?

    I have lot's of clients wanting them on their pistols for home defense lately.
    What we need is a Affordable Suppressor Act.
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  14. #73
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    Damaged hearing is different from diminished hearing like some people get as they age. Something called "recruitment" results in hearing the wrong sounds very well (wind noise, fans, motors) and voices very badly. Conversations at busy restaurants are almost impossible. "Compression" is when an increase in volume (like a commercial on tv) is perceived as uncomfortably loud. It is common for both of these effects to result from damaged hearing and hearing aids costing more than two Wilson Combat 1911s will not help much. I would of course accept these problems to save my life but thick safety glasses earpieces, thin earmuff seals, an indoor range, and a hundred rounds of 9mm did the trick on me. This is just another reason why using a firearm for self defense is something we all hope we never have to do.


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  15. #74
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock.Man View Post
    When I stopped two would be home invaders at 2:00 AM in the morning I didn't go searching for the quietest gun. I chose my Glock 23 which is my normal carry gun. One thing I would recommend to all potential shooters is to fire your gun outside so you know what to expect in a life or death situation. Not everyone carrying comes from a police or military background, or even a hunting background.
    Negative. It can only take one shot without hearing protection to cause permanent hearing damage. I would never, ever recommend anyone "try it out" to see what it's like. Bad, bad idea. Take it from someone with tinnitus...you don't want it.

    As far as being in a car...best option is to drive away, even if you have to drive over or through things to do it. Damage to your car is preferable to being in a gunfight. And your car can be the most potent weapon you have.

    If you cannot escape, then get the hell out of the car! Move to cover - a car is not cover unless it is armored.

    If you cannot get out, then and only then, should you shoot from inside a car. Spall is a very real danger, and you could lose your sight from glass or other fragments as well as your hearing.

    For home defense...if you live in a state where suppressors are legal...GET ONE. It can save your hearing, and the hearing of those you live with.

    If suppressors are not legal...step one is to place electronic ear pro next to where you keep your home defense gun. If you have two seconds, you can put them on, and they will allow you to hear better than without them being on.

    Step two is to consider low pressure home defense guns...like .45, .38, and .380. Higher pressure rounds like 9mm, .357, and .40 will have more probability of causing hearing loss.

    For home defense long guns, where suppressors are not legal, a .45 carbine is a good bet. Unfortunaltely, many states that outlaw suppressors also outlaw "assault guns" so finding a legal .45 carbine isn't easy. A lever gun loaded with .38 is an option too, but many lever guns tend to be balky with .38 instead of the longer .357.

    Again, take it from someone with tinnitus...protecting your hearing should be a consideration.
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Negative. It can only take one shot without hearing protection to cause permanent hearing damage. I would never, ever recommend anyone "try it out" to see what it's like. Bad, bad idea. Take it from someone with tinnitus...you don't want it.

    As far as being in a car...best option is to drive away, even if you have to drive over or through things to do it. Damage to your car is preferable to being in a gunfight. And your car can be the most potent weapon you have.

    If you cannot escape, then get the hell out of the car! Move to cover - a car is not cover unless it is armored.

    If you cannot get out, then and only then, should you shoot from inside a car. Spall is a very real danger, and you could lose your sight from glass or other fragments as well as your hearing.

    For home defense...if you live in a state where suppressors are legal...GET ONE. It can save your hearing, and the hearing of those you live with.

    If suppressors are not legal...step one is to place electronic ear pro next to where you keep your home defense gun. If you have two seconds, you can put them on, and they will allow you to hear better than without them being on.

    Step two is to consider low pressure home defense guns...like .45, .38, and .380. Higher pressure rounds like 9mm, .357, and .40 will have more probability of causing hearing loss.

    For home defense long guns, where suppressors are not legal, a .45 carbine is a good bet. Unfortunaltely, many states that outlaw suppressors also outlaw "assault guns" so finding a legal .45 carbine isn't easy. A lever gun loaded with .38 is an option too, but many lever guns tend to be balky with .38 instead of the longer .357.

    Again, take it from someone with tinnitus...protecting your hearing should be a consideration.
    I understand, but my first consideration is weapon it's not how loud or quiet it is. I feel life is first and then hearing. By the way my hearing sucks big time. Just my $.02.
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