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CCW In Ohio Houses of Worship

Thread: CCW In Ohio Houses of Worship

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  1. Old Man's Avatar

    Old Man said:
    @Mike1956 I am glad for you that this has been resolved and you will be returning to the synagogue to worship.
     
  2. RETSUPT99's Avatar

    RETSUPT99 said:
    Florida allows church carry, and at any service at our church, there are probably 50+ members who CCW. I'm also a member of our church safety team...32 members who serve once a month at eight positions around the church, qualified with a particular firearm, and organized training sessions every few months. It's not exactly the Secret Service, but certainly a defined group of armed individuals who are aware of the surroundings and dedicated to a safe environment.
    Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member
     
  3. SouthernBoyVA's Avatar

    SouthernBoyVA said:
    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    "Good and sufficient reason" is vague and open to interpretations that can vary with the political winds. Allow it, or do not. Undefined conditions lead to "AG opinions," which are just that--opinions--not law--that can reverse with the next election. Courts can decide against "opinions."
    Yes they can go either way. But at best, you might get charged with trespassing. A good attorney, knowledgeable in such matters, can be your best friend with something like this. As a side, keep it concealed and keep your eyes and ears open. What with some of the things we have been seeing in such places over recent times, I would prefer to err on the side of prudence and be armed in a place of worship.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!
     
  4. Hoganbeg's Avatar

    Hoganbeg said:
    I thought this was resolved before but I'm glad to hear that it is finally a done deal. It seems your leadership in standing by your principles was helpful in getting them to re-examine their beliefs. Well done!
    "Power always comes from men acting together…; isolated men are powerless by definition.” Hannah Arendt

    "The less we are governed internally, the more we invite external governance from the state." Murray Rothbard
     
  5. Kenny53's Avatar

    Kenny53 said:
    Mike I am glad that it has worked for you and your church/temple. I live in Utah and we can carry most everywhere. I carry to church every Sunday and my pastor is very happy about it. As a matter of fact many carry every Sunday. I am not a member of the LDS/ Mormon church but I do believe that they are adamant about not allowing guns in their churches. I don't think that is a good policy. I don't like being in a soft target and a church with out defense is a soft target just like a school full of kids.
     
  6. ColoradoDiablo's Avatar

    ColoradoDiablo said:
    @Mike1956 I am so glad they worked it out for you. Mazel tov and B'hatzlacha.
    U.S. Army, Retired (1986 to 2014)
    Life Member, Veterans of Foreign Wars
     
  7. gasmitty's Avatar

    gasmitty said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    As for the licensed carrier in question, he is not a member of the congregation and shows up only for High Holidays with his mother ever few years.
    That's funny! In my church we have "C and E" Christians who only show up at Christmas and Easter. Looks like you have a "R and Y" (Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur) Jew in your congregation!
    Smitty
    AZCDL Life Member
    NRA Patron Member
    NROI Chief Range Officer
     
  8. gasmitty's Avatar

    gasmitty said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post

    The resolution described the amount of professional training and experience I have, and stated that I am authorized to carry for as long as my CHL remains valid.

    Several of those who were instrumental are far from gun guys. They expressed that their motivation was to get me back in attendance.

    The end of a very stressful, trying process...
    Well done, Mike - seems like a very positive outcome for all concerned. May you never have to need your arms in your temple.
    Smitty
    AZCDL Life Member
    NRA Patron Member
    NROI Chief Range Officer
     
  9. Rocketslc's Avatar

    Rocketslc said:
    @Kenny53 . This is the ultimate irony of the Utah law. The Utah Legislature is defiantly very pro gun owner and very much controlled by the LDS church. Yet the LDS church bans firearms. Go figure, I guess they don't trust their own membership..

    https://bci.utah.gov/concealed-firea...s-on-premises/
     
  10. jmf552's Avatar

    jmf552 said:
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    Yes they can go either way. But at best, you might get charged with trespassing. A good attorney, knowledgeable in such matters, can be your best friend with something like this. As a side, keep it concealed and keep your eyes and ears open. What with some of the things we have been seeing in such places over recent times, I would prefer to err on the side of prudence and be armed in a place of worship.
    There are some cautions to think about. Trespassing in VA is a Class 1 misdemeanor, which can carry up to 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine. I'm not saying that is what the likely sentence would be, but just saying "trespass" sounds so innocuous, but it might not be. Also, trespass is the charge you would get if the church were posted as a GFZ, you carried there anyway, they asked you to leave, but you refused. But there is also...

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.
    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    So if the church were posted and your refused to leave, you could theoretically get both Class 1 and Class 4 misdemeanors. I'm not being Chicken Little here, just saying in a gun unfriendly jurisdiction, like the City of Richmond, it could be more problematic that one might think.
    Last edited by jmf552; May 10th, 2019 at 08:39 AM.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe
     
  11. SouthernBoyVA's Avatar

    SouthernBoyVA said:
    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I am for armed security at churches and I think a volunteer force that has training, has a strategy and has trained together on it is a great idea. I do think the idea of some yahoos in the congregation throwing rounds in a packed space is a bit intimidating. I carry at church, but I have thought about the likely scenario: People running all over each other for the exits, no clear shot to the bad guy, off-duty LEOs in the congregation not being able to distinguish who is a defender, me not being able to distinguish defenders from bad guys, etc. Not insurmountable problems, but ones that are worth considering.

    Although I don't agree, I can see why churches don't go for it. First, there is liability. If there is a shooting they might get sued for not having security, but if they have security who winds up hitting innocents, even if they save lives, they will definitely get sued, big time. Also, most clergy and other church leadership are as "head in the sand" about the risks as the general public.

    FWIW, I am part of the VCDL's group looking into church security, but it has not been as productive as I had hoped. I was also on Grant Cunningham's book launch team for his new book, "Praying Safe" that deals with all these issues. It takes a systematic risk management approach to the problem and talks about security teams, selling the idea to church leadership, etc. There really is a lot more to it than just allowing congregants to carry guns. I recommend the book to anyone who is interested in the topic.
    While many of us might like to think that they carry to be an aid to others who either don't or can't for some reason, as well as for themselves and their loved ones, the acid truth is that most carry for really just one reason; to protect themselves those they love. Other people generally have the same rights and can carry for this reason as well. The way I look at it is that if something really bad suddenly starts to go down, I want any and every chance I can muster to save myself and those I care about. The last religious ceremony I attended was Easter services in the Expo at Central Park in Fredericksburg. There were somewhere around 3,000 to 3,500 people in attendance. Many times during the service I found myself imagining what a prize this would be for some terrorist group and what the heck would I do.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!
     
  12. SouthernBoyVA's Avatar

    SouthernBoyVA said:
    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    There are some cautions to think about. Trespassing in VA is a Class 1 misdemeanor, which can carry up to 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine. I'm not saying that is what the likely sentence would be, but just saying "trespass" sounds so innocuous, but it might not be. Also, trespass is the charge you would get if the church were posted as a GFZ, you carried there anyway, they asked you to leave, but you refused. But there is also...

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.
    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    So if the church were posted and your refused to leave, you could theoretically get both Class 1 and Class 4 misdemeanors. I'm not being Chicken Little here, just saying in a gun unfriendly jurisdiction, like the City of Richmond, it could be more problematic that one might think.
    As someone pointed out, "good and sufficient reason" is a very open-ended reason for carrying. I suspect if a minister/reverend/priest/rabbi asked you to take your sidearm out to your vehicle and you complied, there would be no trespass charges. But one never knows. And CFZ postings at places of worship are only going to be present if there is a school on the premises as part of the church; I believe that is correct.

    Best bet.. If you don't see any posted signs, keep it concealed and just go about your business as any other person might.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!
     
  13. jmf552's Avatar

    jmf552 said:
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    As someone pointed out, "good and sufficient reason" is a very open-ended reason for carrying. I suspect if a minister/reverend/priest/rabbi asked you to take your sidearm out to your vehicle and you complied, there would be no trespass charges. But one never knows. And CFZ postings at places of worship are only going to be present if there is a school on the premises as part of the church; I believe that is correct.

    Best bet.. If you don't see any posted signs, keep it concealed and just go about your business as any other person might.
    Any church can put a GFZ sign up if they want to. And the school thing raises a whole other issue. 18.2-308.1 makes it a felony to carry on school grounds, GFZ sign or not, CC permit or not. So if the church and the school are one continuous facility, that raises the bar. I have also heard that it is a gray area even if the facility is just a church, but the facilities are being used for Sunday school.

    I carry in church and I don't think these hazards are likely, but there are worth thinking about. VA is going so far left, I wonder sometimes.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe
     
  14. xXxHeavy's Avatar

    xXxHeavy said:
    Times have drastically changed, this isn't the old Sunday service as we knew it any longer.......better get with the program....omo.
    Why did the Moron buy a ladder...... he's takin' his case to a higher court.
     
  15. OldVet's Avatar

    OldVet said:
    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Well done, Mike - seems like a very positive outcome for all concerned. May you never have to need your arms in your temple.
    Nor anyone else's.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth