Tactical question for LEOs - Page 3

Tactical question for LEOs

This is a discussion on Tactical question for LEOs within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jmf552 Absolutely true. However, I'm remembering a video format force-on-force class I took at the NRA HQ in Fairfax. Similar "second in ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Absolutely true. However, I'm remembering a video format force-on-force class I took at the NRA HQ in Fairfax. Similar "second in line at the cash register" situation. I didn't draw because the BG looked like he got what he came for and was leaving.

    But then the BG shot the clerk and immediately turned around and shot me. Had I drawn and fired at first sight of the gun, I would have saved the clerk's life and mine. Yes, it was a simulation, but not an unrealistic one, I think. My guess is some bad guys pretend they are not going to shoot in order to gain compliance, but once they get what they want, they don't want witnesses.
    In our state, robbery itself is justification for the use of deadly force, be it against one's self or another innocent party. Doesn't matter if a weapon is presented. However if a BG presents a weapon, one has all the reason they need for an immediate deadly force response. No need to warn, shout, or demand the BG to drop his weapon. You are essentially free to open fire.

    Now, enter the lawyers and their after-the-incident armchair quarterbacking. How might this play out in some areas of the state which may be tainted with slanted opinions based upon the race or some other ridiculous factor of the BG. Can make a rather simple decision pretty complicated.

    With this sort of nonsense pervading our legal bastions, I'm not so sure I would be willing to sacrifice my future freedom and financial well being to chance.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Hard to miss with the muzzle pressed into his ear. Hence my reply earlier.
    "Can you hear me now?"
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    "Can you hear me now?"
    Unlikely at best
    The mind is the limiting factor

    The lion does not even bother to turn his head when he hears the small dog barking.

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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    You didn't threaten to turn his head into a canoe?

    Attachment 299044

    I'm soooo disappointed.
    That's only from the front, he had the gun at the back of the head
    The mind is the limiting factor

    The lion does not even bother to turn his head when he hears the small dog barking.

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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    That's only from the front, he had the gun at the back of the head
    Then make it a kayak.
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    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwallis View Post
    As a concealed carrier, I think most of us try to think about and consider the possible scenarios We could find ourselves in and how We would respond. However, the scenario of coming up behind an armed ďbad guyĒ or getting the drop on them is one Iím not sure how should be safely handled. For instance, if someone broke into my house and they had a gun, but I was able to get behind them gun drawn with out their knowledge, how do I get their attention and let them know I have a gun and the upper hand with out completely startling them and have them possibly instinctively spin around with a gun possibly forcing me to shoot? I assume the LEOs have probably had training or most likely real world experience with how to handle this type of situation without increasing the chance of requiring deadly force. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
    I'd say, "Police. Don't move. Drop the gun".
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  8. #37
    Senior Member Array KevinRohrer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwallis View Post
    Then I guess a better scenario would be if your in public letís say in line at the register at a gas station and the person in front of you pulls a gun on the clerk. Do you draw? And if you do since your inside your ďcastleĒ the legality and implied right to protection is different so how do you draw and avoid a shootout?
    This is a question for your attorney to answer.
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  9. #38
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    If someone has myself or someone else at gunpoint, and Iím able to get my gun out without them noticing, Iím not going to tell them I have a gun. Iím just going to shoot them. They will find out that I have a gun when they have a few chunks of lead flying through their chest.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwallis View Post
    Then I guess a better scenario would be if your in public letís say in line at the register at a gas station and the person in front of you pulls a gun on the clerk. Do you draw? And if you do since your inside your ďcastleĒ the legality and implied right to protection is different so how do you draw and avoid a shootout?
    In Texas, yes, I would draw. Iím allowed to legally deploy deadly force to save anotherís life.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwallis View Post
    Thanks Oldchap, the question was intended as less of a legal question and more of a tactical question of how to approach the scenario. Mainly cause if the guys back is turned and weíre in public and heís not in my house at 1 a.m. (to me implying seemingly more nefarious intentions, which is probably Iíll guided) Iím not gonna just draw and shoot him in the back, but I donít want to draw and have him turn around and shoot me cause I demanded him to drop the gun. I also donít feel right letting a innocent person get shot over $100 in the register when I possibly had the means to prevent it.
    The best tactical solution is to withdraw and call the police. Never,never, NEVER challenge a BG. I am not putting my livelihood, life, families well being on the hook for a stranger. I was a cop for almost 40 years and paid to intervene. Now, no one has my back. Is that 7-11 clerk gonna pay my legal bills? Medical bills? Take care of my family? The way I see it, everyone has the same opportunity I did to learn SD, I am not their keeper or protector.

    That is not saying I would not intervene in certain situations, just that I am not likely too and if I do I will do so decisively.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Even inside your home? Ohio has duty to retreat outside the home and vehicle, but castle doctrine is still in effect in those particular locales.
    When I was in college I wrote a short paper about home defense. During my research, I uncovered six states in which you were required to retreat in your own home, to the extend of exiting the building, before you could use deadly force. I also uncovered some interesting cases where a homeowner was charged when they used deadly force in those states, one of which involved the mother trying to protect her young children who had made it into the basement before she shot her assailant. The court ruled that since the basement had a door she should have used that door to exit her home before using deadly force.

    I would never live in such a state. Here it's pretty simple. There are five felonies for which a deadly force response is justifiable: murder, rape, robbery, burglary, and arson. If someone breaks into your home at night, they are a burglar by definition.
    Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; July 25th, 2019 at 01:09 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    When I was in college I wrote a short paper about home defense. During my research, I uncovered six states in which you are required to retreat in your own home, to the extend of exiting the building, before you can use deadly force. I also uncovered some interesting cases where a homeowner was charged when they used deadly force in those states, one of which involved the mother trying to protect her young children who had made it into the basement before she shot her assailant. The court ruled that since the basement had a door she should have used that door to exit her home before using deadly force.
    That would be an fairly accurate description of Ohio prior to around 2004. I would be surprised if there are still states in which that is still the standard.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Absolutely true. However, I'm remembering a video format force-on-force class I took at the NRA HQ in Fairfax. Similar "second in line at the cash register" situation. I didn't draw because the BG looked like he got what he came for and was leaving.

    But then the BG shot the clerk and immediately turned around and shot me. Had I drawn and fired at first sight of the gun, I would have saved the clerk's life and mine. Yes, it was a simulation, but not an unrealistic one, I think. My guess is some bad guys pretend they are not going to shoot in order to gain compliance, but once they get what they want, they don't want witnesses.
    The moment someone presents a weapon and has satisfied the three basic requirements of being an imminent threat, you are free to open fire. Whether or not someone chooses to do this is entirely up to them. I seriously doubt that if a good citizen did this to save someone else, he would be charged with anything in this state.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    That would be an fairly accurate description of Ohio prior to around 2004. I would be surprised if there are still states in which that is still the standard.
    I wrote that paper in the later 1970's* and remember that two of the states were Massachusetts and, hard to believe, South Carolina. I don't recall the other four states. I just found it so hard to imagine how a state could have such a law. It made no sense to me.


    * In the 60's I has taking some college courses but soon dropped out. In 1977, I went back to finish up by going part time at night for seven years. It meant so much more when I was an adult and had a family to think about.
    Mike1956 and glockman10mm like this.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    When I was in college I wrote a short paper about home defense. During my research, I uncovered six states in which you are required to retreat in your own home, to the extend of exiting the building, before you can use deadly force. I also uncovered some interesting cases where a homeowner was charged when they used deadly force in those states, one of which involved the mother trying to protect her young children who had made it into the basement before she shot her assailant. The court ruled that since the basement had a door she should have used that door to exit her home before using deadly force.

    I would never live in such a state. Here it's pretty simple. There are five felonies for which a deadly force response is justifiable: murder, rape, robbery, burglary, and arson. If someone breaks into your home at night, they are a burglar by definition.
    Most states that "require" retreat also state if possible to do so safely, which is an out in most cases. So what is someone called who breaks into your home during the day?
    Bad Bob likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

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