The .380 round for SD - Page 11

The .380 round for SD

This is a discussion on The .380 round for SD within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Expansion is seriously over-rated, IMO. Expansion is nice to have but I'm not depending upon it....

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Thread: The .380 round for SD

  1. #151
    Senior Member Array Holmes375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Expansion is seriously over-rated, IMO.
    Expansion is nice to have but I'm not depending upon it.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Expansion is seriously over-rated, IMO.
    Yeah man, itís like, your lungs expand inside your body every time you breath but you donít die, right?

    ......my best AOC impersonation, lol
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Expansion is seriously over-rated, IMO.
    I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
    "Wouldn't want to or Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

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  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Expansion is seriously over- rated, IMO.
    Yep. Penetration is more important.
    Last edited by OD*; August 22nd, 2019 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Repair quote

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Yeah man, itís like, your lungs expand inside your body every time you breath but you donít die, right?

    ......my best AOC impersonation, lol
    Exactly! And when you shoot someone in the face with your .380, it's gonna be a fight-stopper, expansion or not.
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  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Exactly! And when you shoot someone in the face with your .380, it's gonna be a fight-stopper, expansion or not.
    Assuming it's a good, solid square hit into the CNS, then yes, a fight stopper.

    Off a little and the bullet finds a bony path underneath the skin to whiz around on, maybe, maybe not - blow off the nose or the chin, maybe maybe not.

    And this from a guy who has previously bragged about his LCP being an eye poker and a nose picker.
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  8. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlggray View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Expansion is seriously over- rated, IMO.
    Yep. Penetration is more important.
    I was reading an interesting article in the American Rifleman just yesterday about expansion vs penetration, and how modern high-velocity rounds, being for the military and FMJ i.e. no hollow-points, would produce fairly small, 22 caliber holes in the enemy unless they were travelling fast enough to skid sideways.

    Medium velocity: full penetration, through and through, but not much damage, about the same as if someone had fallen on a pencil.

    High velocity: full penetration, but the round would immediately start turning on impact, sliding sideways, and doing far more damage before blowing a big chunk out the backside.

    skewing=skidding=expansion

    Full penetration -- clean through -- both cases

    80% of the damage, however, was done through skewing/skidding/expansion, and more than two thirds of the round's velocity is expended in the first 10-12 inches if it is skidding. If it's not skidding, soft tissue doesn't slow it down much at all, not even 20%.

    Expansion caused by hollow-points accomplishes the same for lower-velocity rounds that skidding accomplishes with high-velocity rounds.

    So, no, penetration is hardly important at all, not if you want to stop the guy.

    Expansion (low velocity hollow-points aka .380 ACP, 9mm, .357) and skidding (high-velocity FMJ) are the only way to go.
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  9. #158
    VIP Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    The theory that expansion is overrated represented in a picture.
    In that theory whether the bullet (in the center) expands is less important than shot placement, amiright.
    The .380 round for SD-expansion.jpg

    However, there is no way to guarantee shot placement.
    With less than optimal shot placement, the increased diameter of one of those expanded bullets might hit something important.
    Given the same shot placement, bigger holes are better. IMO.
    I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
    "Wouldn't want to or Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

  10. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    I was reading an interesting article in the American Rifleman just yesterday about expansion vs penetration, and how modern high-velocity rounds, being for the military and FMJ i.e. no hollow-points, would produce fairly small, 22 caliber holes in the enemy unless they were travelling fast enough to skid sideways.

    Medium velocity: full penetration, through and through, but not much damage, about the same as if someone had fallen on a pencil.

    High velocity: full penetration, but the round would immediately start turning on impact, sliding sideways, and doing far more damage before blowing a big chunk out the backside.

    skewing=skidding=expansion

    Full penetration -- clean through -- both cases

    80% of the damage, however, was done through skewing/skidding/expansion, and more than two thirds of the round's velocity is expended in the first 10-12 inches if it is skidding. If it's not skidding, soft tissue doesn't slow it down much at all, not even 20%.

    Expansion caused by hollow-points accomplishes the same for lower-velocity rounds that skidding accomplishes with high-velocity rounds.

    So, no, penetration is hardly important at all, not if you want to stop the guy.

    Expansion (low velocity hollow-points aka .380 ACP, 9mm, .357) and skidding (high-velocity FMJ) are the only way to go.
    Well, the only fly in that ointment is the fact, that the 45 Auto has not only a proven track record, but a history of being a fight stopper with non expanding ammo at low velocities.
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  11. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Exactly! And when you shoot someone in the face with your .380, it's gonna be a fight-stopper, expansion or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Well, the only fly in that ointment is the fact, that the 45 Auto has not only a proven track record, but a history of being a fight stopper with non expanding ammo at low velocities.
    Both are fight stoppers imo.
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  12. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
    The theory that expansion is overrated represented in a picture.
    In that theory whether the bullet (in the center) expands is less important than shot placement, amiright.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	expansion.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	1.03 MB 
ID:	300758

    However, there is no way to guarantee shot placement.
    With less than optimal shot placement, the increased diameter of one of those expanded bullets might hit something important.
    Given the same shot placement, bigger holes are better. IMO.
    You don't get those nice and perfect gel flowers in real flesh. Those gel flowers are produced to sell ammo.

  13. #162
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    glockman Keep telling your self a 45acp has a history of being a fight stopper with non expanding ammo at low velocities while re reading the officers true live close call- ( Why I carry 145 rounds ) The bad guy took 14 hits of 37 fired to bring this alcohol and drug free pissed off bad guy to the ground but still took a while longer to die . HP were used but many did hit glass while shooting threw his windshield .

    I like both expansion and penetration with good bullet placement so no 380acp for me . Today round nose full metal jacket do still kill but that does not mean it kills quickly enough when compared to a good HP bullet from a proper sized cartridge to stop a BG from mucking up your life too and most times a the trama care doctors will save the guy with bullet holes from FMJ and send the human target home in a few days more often do to poor shot placement and fmj bullets being used .

    The 45acp and fmj worked well in WW1 thanks to poor to no medical care and infection do to battel field conditions of the area !!

  14. #163
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    Hmmmmm is this a "caliber war" within one caliber?? Expansion VS Penetration!!!
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  15. #164
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    Ultimately what ends up being a fight stopper at handgun velocities is penetration coupled with maceration of tissue. Whatever combination results in the greatest blood loss, which drops blood pressure below the level needed to sustain consciousness, is the better option. How much tissue is physically touched and destroyed matters. What type and location of tissue is destroyed, and how much blood loss that causes, matters.

    IMO, the .380 is marginal in terms of creating this necessary damage relative to the more common service caliber options, speaking strictly from a ballistics and terminal effects perspective. However, the .380 has significant size/weight/recoil advantages in some situations that can make it a better option for some people.

    Maybe I should have started with "it depends."
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  16. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardluk1 View Post
    glockman Keep telling your self a 45acp has a history of being a fight stopper with non expanding ammo at low velocities while re reading the officers true live close call- ( Why I carry 145 rounds ) The bad guy took 14 hits of 37 fired to bring this alcohol and drug free pissed off bad guy to the ground but still took a while longer to die . HP were used but many did hit glass while shooting threw his windshield .

    I like both expansion and penetration with good bullet placement so no 380acp for me . Today round nose full metal jacket do still kill but that does not mean it kills quickly enough when compared to a good HP bullet from a proper sized cartridge to stop a BG from mucking up your life too and most times a the trama care doctors will save the guy with bullet holes from FMJ and send the human target home in a few days more often do to poor shot placement and fmj bullets being used .

    The 45acp and fmj worked well in WW1 thanks to poor to no medical care and infection do to battel field conditions of the area !!
    That incident of the officer was an extreme case, not the rule. I would much rather look at the overall history and track record along with my own experience than to bet the farm on an extreme exception to the rule.

    The 45 Auto with ball not only worked in WWI, but WWII , Korea, Vietnam and every where else.

    Furthermore, I have never depended on expanding bullet technology because it is dependent on variables that may or may not be present or inhibited in any given situation. The only thing that can be absolutely controlled is penetration.

    When I use Hollowpoints ( which I do), I only use XTPís or Noslers. Even in the 380, the XTPís deliver the goods.
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