The .380 round for SD - Page 7

The .380 round for SD

This is a discussion on The .380 round for SD within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Jeepguy1 I decided to carry a .380 because if I ever have to fire it, where ever that bullet goes, I own ...

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Thread: The .380 round for SD

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array CreedDryrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepguy1 View Post
    I decided to carry a .380 because if I ever have to fire it, where ever that bullet goes, I own it. I am responsible for whatever it hits. If I were shooting a larger caliber gun and the bullet hit the perpetrator and went through them and hit someone else, I am responsible for that. Of if I miss and a larger caliber bullet goes through a wall, I am responsible. I want a round that can injure a person to make them stop, but not so strong it will pass through them or walls. That is my crazy theory anyway.
    That's a great theory, and very humanitarian of you... but 380 will go through a body or a wall too. That has more to do with the manufacturer of the round, the person, and the construction of the wall; and less to do with the caliber of the bullet.
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  2. #92
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    I decided to carry a .380 (sometimes when I can't get away with carrying a 9) because if I ever have to fire it, I'll fire it fully intending on killing or incapacitating whomever I fire it at. I'll own that and be responsible for it. I'll worry about over-penetration/whatever else later. How's that?
    Charlie Co. 101st Assault Helicopter Battalion (Wings of the Eagle), 101st Airborne Division (Airmobile)
    Phu Bai, Vietnam 1971-72

  3. #93
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Just a friendly thought. We don't shoot to kill...we shoot to stop the threat. Reminding ourselves of that truth is excellent practice should, God forbid, we ever have to shoot.

    The times I heard someone say "I shot him because I wanted to kill him" or some other such thing, it never went well with the shooter.

    On the other hand, a guy who told us he had to shoot to "stop the threat to me and my family...the guy was going to kill us", after an investigation, no charges filed.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

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  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Just a friendly thought. We don't shoot to kill...we shoot to stop the threat. Reminding ourselves of that truth is excellent practice should, God forbid, we ever have to shoot.

    The times I heard someone say "I shot him because I wanted to kill him" or some other such thing, it never went well with the shooter.

    On the other hand, a guy who told us he had to shoot to "stop the threat to me and my family...the guy was going to kill us", after an investigation, no charges filed.
    You are correct. I should have left my statement at "incapacitate."
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    Charlie Co. 101st Assault Helicopter Battalion (Wings of the Eagle), 101st Airborne Division (Airmobile)
    Phu Bai, Vietnam 1971-72

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavygravy View Post
    You are correct. I should have left my statement at "incapacitate."
    Hey brother, if I had a dollar for every time I've said that same thing to myself, I'd treat myself to my own set of Christmas cards!
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  7. #96
    VIP Member Array Sister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Just a friendly thought. We don't shoot to kill...we shoot to stop the threat. Reminding ourselves of that truth is excellent practice should, God forbid, we ever have to shoot.

    The times I heard someone say "I shot him because I wanted to kill him" or some other such thing, it never went well with the shooter.

    On the other hand, a guy who told us he had to shoot to "stop the threat to me and my family...the guy was going to kill us", after an investigation, no charges filed.

    Pretty cool when a pastor cop tells you how to get out of a killíin without going to jail




    Sir, I was always told to shoot to kill cause if you donít you will end up supporting them the rest of their life. Your idea is much better, you still can shoot to kill, but make sure itís legal just by how you phrase it!
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  8. #97
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    OP....something is better than nothing.

    The .380 or 9mm Browning short is OK, but lesser so than the more potent 9mm. . The .25 is a toy, .22 Stinger is better than a .25, just forget all these puny calibers unless it is a last resort. If you do find your life resting on a .25 or .22, they do the best job when placed in an eye or an ear.

    If you want great penetration it requires a full metal jacket with low expansion of the bullet. This may cause problems with the bullet exiting the body cleaning doing less damage to the assailant, offering less stopping power and hitting innocent bystanders.

    Here are a few penetration tests of stacked newsprint to give you an idea how various ammo performs.

    .22 short 5/8 inch of newsprint (snubnose)
    .22 quiet 1 inch of newsprint (snubnose)
    .22 HVHP 2-3/8 inches of newsprint (snubnose)
    .22 Stinger 3-1/4 inches of newsprint (snubnose)
    .380 ball 3-3/8 inches of newsprint (Beretta)
    .38 SP Federal ball 4 inches of newsprint (snubnose)
    .357 Hornady plastic tip magnum 3-3/4 inches of compressed kraft paper (snubnose) (a)
    .357 Hornady plastic tip magnum 6 inches of compressed kraft paper (Ruger 4" barrel) (a)
    9mm Hornady 6-7/8 inches of newsprint (Beretta)
    9mm Herters nylon jacket 10 inches of newsprint (Beretta)
    .45 Auto ball 4 inches of newsprint (Colt 1911)

    (a) I was starting to change the tests to use compressed Kraft paper and never got round to finishing them. Kraft paper offer more resistance than newsprint. If the .357 was shot into newsprint I think the penetration would be about 25% more.

    .38 Sp. contact shot through folded cloth

    The .380 round for SD-contact-shot-1-.38-sp-through-folded-cloth-d.d.-teoli-jr..jpg

    "A small .38 spl revolver is more reliable in these situations than a small .380 ACP pistol, especially with contact shots or if fired from a pocket.Ē

    This is true.
    Last edited by Invisibleflash; August 16th, 2019 at 10:53 PM.
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  9. #98
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sister View Post
    Pretty cool when a pastor cop tells you how to get out of a killíin without going to jail




    Sir, I was always told to shoot to kill cause if you donít you will end up supporting them the rest of their life. Your idea is much better, you still can shoot to kill, but make sure itís legal just by how you phrase it!
    It's a little more complicated than that. But this is basic stuff.

    Most people talk themselves into serious charges because they are eager to talk (adreneline) and they say the wrong thing. Basically you never shoot to wound (if the actor only needed wounding, then lethal force wasn't necessary) and you never say to anyone that they needed killing (even if you say that to yourself).

    As to lawsuits...that is for later. Suffice to say that in Texas if it is ruled a good shoot (justified) under the law, you cannot be sued in civil court.

    That's just a nutshell. Thank the good Lord I'm not a lawyer. Ohhhh...even saying that makes me nauseated!
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    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risasi View Post
    There can be only one...

    Attachment 299924
    Hey, now you are combining two movie franchises.

    I carry a P232 or 230 during the FL summer. With the heat and my work, smaller is better than nothing.

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  11. #100
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepguy1 View Post
    I decided to carry a .380 because if I ever have to fire it, where ever that bullet goes, I own it. I am responsible for whatever it hits. If I were shooting a larger caliber gun and the bullet hit the perpetrator and went through them and hit someone else, I am responsible for that. Of if I miss and a larger caliber bullet goes through a wall, I am responsible. I want a round that can injure a person to make them stop, but not so strong it will pass through them or walls. That is my crazy theory anyway.
    Common misconception that a 380 will not penetrate. I am not taking a stand on weather it is or is not a worthy SD round. Worthless discussion IMO. But this is a 380 and a steel door both sides. The black DOT was the nose on a face painted on the door. Shot at 21 feet with a ruger LCP . The round also went through 7/16 ply wood behind the door.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The .380 round for SD-door380-2-.jpg  

    The .380 round for SD-door380-1-.jpg  

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  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invisibleflash View Post
    OP....something is better than nothing.

    The .380 or 9mm Browning short is OK, but lesser so than the more potent 9mm. . The .25 is a toy, .22 Stinger is better than a .25, just forget all these puny calibers unless it is a last resort. If you do find your life resting on a .25 or .22, they do the best job when placed in an eye or an ear.

    If you want great penetration it requires a full metal jacket with low expansion of the bullet. This may cause problems with the bullet exiting the body cleaning doing less damage to the assailant, offering less stopping power and hitting innocent bystanders...

    Here are a few penetration tests of stacked newsprint to give you an idea how various ammo performs...
    Welcome to DC!

    You've obviously done a good bit of web-surfing, but have picked up a lot of Internet Folklore along the way.

    If you believe that a .25 ACP is a toy, you really shouldn't be handling firearms at all. If you believe a .22 Stinger is superior to a .25 ACP, you've probably been looking at data comparing a Stinger out of a rifle, with a .25 ACP out of a 2" pistol. From comparable barrel lengths, the .25 has a lower muzzle velocity, but with a much heavier bullet, considerably higher momentum and ME. Both the bullet diameter and sectional density exceed the stinger, and the .25 will outpenetrate the .22 by a wide margin, not to mention the superior reliability of the centerfire round. I would not choose a .22 or a .25 over a larger caliber, but if those were my only options, it would be the .25 hands down.

    If you want great penetration it requires a full metal jacket with low expansion of the bullet.
    No doubt, there's a trade-off between penetration & expansion, but since the thread is about .380 ACP, consider the 90 gr. XTP. In denim/calibrated gel tests, it reliably penetrates ~14 inches with perfect expansion, even out of a short-barrelled pocket pistol. This meets the FBI protocol for a service round, and if you want an effective bullet but are concerned about overpenetration, it's about as good as it gets. Be more concerned about collateral damage from the rounds that miss, rather than those that might overpenetrate the intended target.

    Newspaper, particular if it's dry, is almost worthless for assessing the effectiveness of a bullet. No modern JHP will expand much, if at all, in dry paper, so you're basically just comparing FMJ's no matter what bullet you use. Ballistic gel is not perfect, either, but it at least provides a standard for comparison.

    Welcome aboard. You can learn a lot on DC.
    Regards,
    Jim
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  13. #102
    VIP Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepguy1 View Post
    I decided to carry a .380 because if I ever have to fire it, where ever that bullet goes, I own it. I am responsible for whatever it hits. If I were shooting a larger caliber gun and the bullet hit the perpetrator and went through them and hit someone else, I am responsible for that. Of if I miss and a larger caliber bullet goes through a wall, I am responsible. I want a round that can injure a person to make them stop, but not so strong it will pass through them or walls. That is my crazy theory anyway.
    This is a PDF by Winchester showing barrier testing performance of Ranger ammo including 380
    Link: http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollecti...tocol_2016.pdf

    Surprise!!! A 380 that doesn't expand penetrates further after drywall than a 9mm that does expand.
    380 Ranger penetrated 15'' after drywall, didn't expand.
    9mm +P and +P+ penetrated about 11.5'' after wallboard, they did expand.

    It is desirable for a bullet to penetrate at least 12'' after heavy clothing (4 layer denim) in case bullet has to penetrate a forearm or angled torso shot, upper arm.
    380 Ranger expanded after heavy clothing but penetrated less than 8'' - well short of the desired 12'' minimum.
    All of the Ranger 9mm loads penetrated at least 12'' after heavy clothing.

    The goal of self defense is to hopefully stop an attacker (ASAP incapacitation) before they inflict injury on the defender.
    Compared to 9mm/40/45 (calibers carried by LE in the USA) 380 comes up short.
    "Better than nothing" is not a criteria I use to select the pistol I'm carrying in case somebody(s) tries to kill me.
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    I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
    "Wouldn't want to or Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

  14. #103
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    A lot of people are pretty confident in what caliber or gun they have, and thatís ok.

    However, itís been my experience that itís all for not if your skill level is not up to where it should be to effectively use what you have. And most people feel or think they are until you give them skill perimeters, and then they find out they are woefully lacking.

    Seen a lot of guys with 2000 dollar guns in 4 plus calibers that werenít even a $2 shooter.

    Forget the gun, forget the caliber. Be the guy or gal who can make anything work. Everything else is subjective musing and posturing.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.Ē
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    ď Looking around doesnít cost you anything; and itís a healthy habitĒ
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  15. #104
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    Even a .22 in the hand is better than the police on the phone. Otherwise, check my other post. If the .380 fits the bill, then use it, carry it, practice with it.
    When seconds count, help is only 18+ minutes away!

  16. #105
    Senior Member Array Gunnie's Avatar
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    If you believe that a .25 ACP is a toy, you really shouldn't be handling firearms at all. If you believe a .22 Stinger is superior to a .25 ACP, you've probably been looking at data comparing a Stinger out of a rifle, with a .25 ACP out of a 2" pistol. From comparable barrel lengths, the .25 has a lower muzzle velocity, but with a much heavier bullet, considerably higher momentum and ME. Both the bullet diameter and sectional density exceed the stinger, and the .25 will outpenetrate the .22 by a wide margin, not to mention the superior reliability of the centerfire round. I would not choose a .22 or a .25 over a larger caliber, but if those were my only options, it would be the .25 hands down.
    John Browning designed the 25 to be more reliable and duplicate 22LR power. When he did he gave it a few extras by adding a true jacketed bullet and a heavier one to boot. I find 25 to be perfectly reliable in a quality weapon such as my beretta JetFire or Baby Browningís and the like. I also get a 33% increase in capacity over something like a LCP which is an oz heavier and almost identical dimensions plus my beretta has the better trigger. Not that I would pick it to be my primary but I always have found it comical when people talk about how much better a 22 is when they arenít looking at realistic ballistics. LuckyGunner recently did a whole series on pocket guns and itís certainly worth checking out. I prefer 32 if Iím being mousy but my JetFire makes a good always gun for around the house or in place of a second knife lol
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