Engaging an active shooter is double dangerous for the good guy. - Page 3

Engaging an active shooter is double dangerous for the good guy.

This is a discussion on Engaging an active shooter is double dangerous for the good guy. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CreedDryrot What is highly unlikely? That you'll be shot by the cops? That's already happened. Extremely rare for the situation described, hence, ...

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Thread: Engaging an active shooter is double dangerous for the good guy.

  1. #31
    Member Array since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreedDryrot View Post
    What is highly unlikely? That you'll be shot by the cops? That's already happened.
    Extremely rare for the situation described, hence, "highly unlikely."

    I do not care about anecdotal evidence. I only care about objective information, particularly as it applies to populations as a whole.

    In other words, there are always outliers. They do not tell the story. Means, distributions and skews tell the story.
    matthew03 likes this.
    How many times must we see defenseless people die before we realize being defenseless is NOT the answer? // The First protects the Second and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect everything else.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Array CreedDryrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Extremely rare for the situation described, hence, "highly unlikely."
    Really? What makes you say that?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreedDryrot View Post
    Really? What makes you say that?
    The situation was described.
    How many times must we see defenseless people die before we realize being defenseless is NOT the answer? // The First protects the Second and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect everything else.

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  5. #34
    Senior Member Array CreedDryrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    The situation was described.
    Yeah, no. You're welcome to your opinion. Having an opinion is your right. And what you put was just an opinion, with no basis in fact to back it up.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreedDryrot View Post
    Yeah, no. You're welcome to your opinion. Having an opinion is your right. And what you put was just an opinion, with no basis in fact to back it up.
    Thanks. I do have opinions.

    However, I wasn't speaking my opinion. I was speaking about the situation described in a previous post.

    This is a discussion form, not a forum for playing mind games. You're wasting my time.

    On ignore.

    Enjoy your day.
    How many times must we see defenseless people die before we realize being defenseless is NOT the answer? // The First protects the Second and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect everything else.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array CG11's Avatar
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    The possibility of being mistaken for the active shooter is very real, and even those at ground zero may not have the situational awareness to recognize you as the good guy. Nothing in life is guaranteed - you do what you have to do to the best of your ability and let God sort it all out.
    Be careful of people who brag about who they are - a lion will never have to tell you who he's a lion.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButtShot14 View Post
    matthew03 I like the way you think.
    My thoughts would be very different outside of an active shooter.

    A stick up/robbery etc, likely I would not intervene; active killer dropping innocents is completely different in my mind.
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    I don't train to fight some street urchin, I train to fight the evil version of myself, and that person scares me, because I know the time I put into my training on how to beat him.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invisibleflash View Post
    Not only is there a danger from return fire from the active shooter. But there is a threat from being killed from police mistaking you for the active shooter.

    It has happened before.
    You're forgetting the third danger, that of hitting another innocent person.
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array CreedDryrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Thanks. I do have opinions.

    However, I wasn't speaking my opinion. I was speaking about the situation described in a previous post.

    This is a discussion form, not a forum for playing mind games. You're wasting my time.

    On ignore.

    Enjoy your day.

    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post

    I do not care about anecdotal evidence. I only care about objective information, particularly as it applies to populations as a whole.

    In other words, there are always outliers. They do not tell the story. Means, distributions and skews tell the story.
    Where do you think objective information comes from? Statistics come from past events, aka experience and anecdotal information. Things that have actually happened. You're dismissing the facts you don't like as coming from 'outliers' and accepting the information you agree with as being correct. This is why you have an opinion and aren't holding the facts.

    So much better to live in your ivory tower of ignorant bliss instead of listening to people who have been there and done that. No need to have your beliefs challenged and learn something. Easier to go about your business. I get it. Good day.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    If you are ever in a place where an active shooter or terrorist attack situation suddenly breaks out, your options are definitive. First, try to escape if there is any way you can do this. If you cannot escape, get to cover and get small, if you can do this. If you are within close proximity to a shooter and have the opportunity, kill them. The idea of stopping them, such as in a robbery, should not be your goal. You want to kill them because their whole agenda is a large body count. Much different than someone who wants your wallet and your keys.

    [This information was paraphrased from a book I read not long ago entitled "Facing the Active Shooter" by CR Williams.]
    Decision tree with if-then consideration definitive? That seems rather ambiguous.


    Quote Originally Posted by CreedDryrot View Post
    What is highly unlikely? That you'll be shot by the cops? That's already happened.
    Yes, but it happens much less commonly than getting shot by the bad guys.

    Dan McCown was afraid to be shot by the cops. He had a gun, but was afraid to draw it. He was shot 5 times and crippled for life.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    Decision tree with if-then consideration definitive? That seems rather ambiguous.
    By definitive, I meant both specific and few options. In a terrorist or active shooter situation, you more than likely are not going to have a multitude of options. Things will happen incredibly fast, what with people rushing to exits and collapsing from wounds. It is best to have some sort of plan going in, know your exits and options at each juncture and be aware of your surroundings. A shopping mall is an excellent training venue. Just go into one and do some mental practicing to see what might be available to you in an extreme situation. There is a saying I learned from an SD training video which can apply to a number of situations.

    "The key to avoiding the freeze is to know there will be a fight before it happens."

    By substituting a few words, this lesson can apply to a variety of dangerous situations.
    Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; August 10th, 2019 at 01:51 PM.
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  13. #42
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    Here's another wrinkle: What about the possibility of you, as a defender, shooting another defender, possibly a cop? This almost happened, in the Kenyan mall shooting. A plainclothes cop and a security guard from a local church nearly shot each other.

    As for people saying these kinds of possibilities are rare and unlikely, and the incidents of it are anecdotal, I have to challenge that. Despite the media hype, all mass shootings are relatively rare. Thank heaven there is not, and hopefully never will be, enough evidence to draw statistical conclusions on the likelihood of friendly fire in an SD situation. When you don't have enough data, it only makes sense to look at what is possible.

    Heck, just carrying a gun for SD is hard to justify purely based on statistics. It is a preparation for the unlikely. But so is owning a fire extinguisher and wearing a seat belt. The problem with friendly fire possibilities is not the likelihood, but the fact that it is possible, it has happened and the downside risk is deadly. That makes it a real SD consideration.
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  14. #43
    Senior Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
    By definitive, I meant both specific and few options. In a terrorist or active shooter situation, you more than likely are not going to have a multitude of options. Things will happen incredibly fast, what with people rushing to exits and collapsing from wounds. It is best to have some sort of plan going in, know your exits and options at each juncture and be aware of your surroundings. A shopping mall is an excellent training venue. Just go into one and do some mental practicing to see what might be available to you in an extreme situation. There is a saying I learned from an SD training video which can apply to a number of situations.

    "The key to avoiding the freeze is to know there will be a fight before it happens."

    By substituting a few words, this lesson can apply to a variety of dangerous situations.
    I read a book years ago by a Vietnam fighter pilot who said there were just 3 things you can do when you realized you were in battle.

    You can...
    1. Do the right thing which gives you the highest chances for success. For this, he described various proper things to do in given situations that had proven to be effective.
    2. You can do the wrong thing, which gives you a lower chance for success, but still works a surprising amount of the time. Here he gave examples where pilots things that nobody with proper training should have done, and yet it was weird enough or enough of a surprise to catch the opponent off guard.
    3. You can do nothing, which has the highest chances for failure. The classic example was remaining flying straight and level while being attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Here's another wrinkle: What about the possibility of you, as a defender, shooting another defender, possibly a cop? This almost happened, in the Kenyan mall shooting. A plainclothes cop and a security guard from a local church nearly shot each other.
    Joe Zamudio ran to the sound of gunfire at the Gifford's shooting. He was in a drug store(?) of the shopping center where Gifford's was doing her thing in the parking lot. Joe manages to show up AFTER the shooting had stopped, after people present had tackled Loughner and disarmed him, and Zamudio almost shot the guy who was securing Loughner's gun.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  15. #44
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    If you don't want to be mistaken for the shooter, here are some tips:

    Don't display your firearm until you actually have your target in sight;

    Solve the problem and holster your gun before the police arrive. They will be arriving much sooner than you think, so holster quickly;

    Have your hands high in the air when the police arrive. Again, they will be arriving much sooner than you might think, so it might be prudent to get them high as soon as you holster;

    Shake off the adrenaline, listen closely to the orders the police give you, and understand that you are probably going to get knocked around a bit before things get sorted out. Do whatever they tell you, regardless of how inappropriate, difficult or downright absurd it might seem.



    I spent over two grand in order to receive the above advice from a very reputable shooting school. I just gave it to everyone here for free. You're very welcome.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Don't display your firearm until you actually have your target in sight;
    Not to be argumentative, but just thinking this through. So you are in a venue and you hear shots being fired, you realize it's an active shooter and the situation is such that you decide to take him on rather than escape. You are going to keep your gun holstered until you can see him because you are worried about getting shot by cops who obviously aren't there yet, because if they were, they would be engaging the shooter. I don't follow that logic.

    I would be worried about approaching a shooter without my gun out. If it were a situation where I could not already see him and I was moving toward the danger, I could very well go around a corner and come face-to-face with him. I would want every advantage, including having my gun out, ready to shoot the instant I could. I doubt a cop, even an off duty, plainclothes cop, would do that if he were stalking the shooter. He would have his gun out. A saying I like is, "When the enemy is in range, so are you." Or said another way, "If you see the enemy, he can see you." I would want every chance at getting the first shot.

    The rest of your advice I get.
    SouthernBoyVA likes this.
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