Engaging an active shooter is double dangerous for the good guy. - Page 5

Engaging an active shooter is double dangerous for the good guy.

This is a discussion on Engaging an active shooter is double dangerous for the good guy. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OldVet Like this? Attachment 300450 Something like that,...

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Thread: Engaging an active shooter is double dangerous for the good guy.

  1. #61
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Something like that,

  2. #62
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    CR Williams actually wrote that or you paraphrased? I'm not enamored with espousing kill anyone for any reason, whether it's a robbery of one or an AS trying to take out many, the objective remains the same, stop the aggression. That may or may not lead to an untimely death, but the mindset isn't to kill, it's to stop the threat in either a robbery or AS event IF they present as an imminent threat to grave bodily harm or death.
    Yes, as memory serves. he wrote that. I believe his take was that you could not afford to put someone down and bank on them being out of the fight. That with these sort of people, you are dealing with an entirely different situation. Might be a good idea for me to reread that last chapter just to be certain.
    AzQkr likes this.
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  3. #63
    Distinguished Member Array RedSafety's Avatar
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    Agree, but then there's the flip side. In all but one instance where there was a citizen carrying, the armed citizen stopped the mass shooter, driving him off or killing him. That one exception is Pulse Nightclub where an off duty officer working security failed to stop the shooter. But that was a pro, not a citizen. So I guess the case can be made that in every instance a citizen was carrying, they stopped the active shooter.
    When seconds count, help is only 18+ minutes away!

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  5. #64
    Member Array since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jjones45 View Post
    Yet another thread that proves a good guy with a gun means absolutely nothing during a mass shooting.
    Come again???

    It seem to me a large majority of those who carry guns everyday have already made up their minds they would do absolutely nothing because of the risk involved.
    That's not what I'm reading in the 60+ posts below.

    A gun is supposed to be your last ditch effort...
    Generally speaking. However, if someone kicks open the front door of my house and enters, my firearm becomes my first option. I'm not go to waste valuable time running through any sort of deescalation protocol.

    ...but during an AS situation when people are getting slaughtered I feel it changes a bit.
    You mean like breaking and entering?

    You donít owe anybody to be a hero, but the good guy with a gun motto needs to go by the wayside...
    You're making no sense.

    ...because it is pretty much American gun owner folklore.
    With roughly 750,000 violent crimes stopped by a good guy with a gun each year, the vast majority of them without firing a shot, I'd say it's hardly "folklore."

    With an FBI effectiveness rating of over 90% for armed citizens stopping mass shootings, it's certainly NOT "folklore." They didn't conjure up the data. They got it from actual armed citizens stopping mass shootings incidents in three different studies over the last two decades. In fact, we know for a fact the average deaths of a shooting rampage stopped by police is 14.3, and this is simply because it takes them time to get there, whereas it's only 2.3 for armed citizens because they are already on site.

    The difference between them is obvious: Armed citizens have no mandate, no training, no qualified immunity to move towards the shooter and take him out.

    The solution is simple: Stop disarming people via gun-free zones. Respect the right of the people to keep and bear arms -- EVERYWHERE -- and do not infringe upon it. Right now, the carry rate is an abysmal 1 in 85. What if it were 1 in 20? Citizens would be four times more likely to be armed. In you remove the blitheringly idiotic "gun-free zones" infringements, it might be a dozen times more likely.

    While armed citizens aren't predisposed to head towards the sound of gunfire, they most certainly ARE predisposed to SHOOT BACK if being fired upon.

    Iíd say 99% of people are only worried about saving themselves. Priorities are personal.
    Wow. That's a pretty damned cynical comment. Are you talking about people in general? Or armed citizens? If the former, I might go as far to say it's 1 in 20 i.e. 95%. But it's certainly not 1 in 100 as you claim. If the latter, I would say they've already established they're a cut about the rest, so, 20%? Half? Maybe two-thirds? But that's all I'll give you on that one.

    Let's recap: LE's job is to advance and stop the threat. That's what they're trained to do. My lawful mandate is to defend myself. I am not trained to advance into the arena in which a mass shooter is operating. In fact, doing so exposes me to a whole lot of risk above and beyond that of "merely" being shot. Most mass shooting incidents occur in or near crowds. These shooters clearly have no fear. They've already accepted the foregone conclusion they're probably going to die, and in fact, they've been described as "committing suicide while taking out as many others as they can." If I fired and miss, striking an innocent bystander, I can be sued and lose everything. I have absolutely zero qualified immunity.

    That said, if I'm in a position to take him out, you bet I'm going to take him out.

    As I would describe myself as more cautious than most armed citizens, I find you comments about "good guy with a gun means absolutely nothing" and "folklore" to be way off target.

    The proof is in the pudding. If it weren't, the FBI would not have published the 92% effectiveness figure.
    SAXDM9 and matthew03 like this.
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  6. #65
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    There are those whose intentions are to do what they can to stop a mass shooter. There are others whose intentions are to flee the scene as best possible. I'm genuinely surprised that such personal choices and mindsets generate page after page of back and forth.
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  7. #66
    Senior Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    With an FBI effectiveness rating of over 90% for armed citizens stopping mass shootings, it's certainly NOT "folklore." They didn't conjure up the data. They got it from actual armed citizens stopping mass shootings incidents in three different studies over the last two decades. In fact, we know for a fact the average deaths of a shooting rampage stopped by police is 14.3, and this is simply because it takes them time to get there, whereas it's only 2.3 for armed citizens because they are already on site.
    Citation please.

    Of course, those are the armed citizens who didn't run away.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  8. #67
    Member Array since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    Citation please.
    https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/...-2017.pdf/view

    Of course, those are the armed citizens who didn't run away.
    Is your icon that of a pig or a jackass?
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  9. #68
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    There are those whose intentions are to do what they can to stop a mass shooter. There are others whose intentions are to flee the scene as best possible. I'm genuinely surprised that such personal choices and mindsets generate page after page of back and forth.
    Well, it depends.
    M1911A1 likes this.
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  11. #70
    Member Array starlights's Avatar
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    - everything involves risk
    - there are more bad guys acting bad than good guys engaging in 'friendly fire' or 'mistaking the good guy for the criminal'

    - ccw during mass shooting event is LOW
    - ccw during a PERSONAL target attach on you is HIGH (gas station, road attack, entering leaving your house/garage, being stalked by an 'enemy', being targeted leaving a bank/casino, etc)

    - be minded of the high probability event, not the low one...





    :)

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