Holding A Perp Until The Police Arrive - Page 3

Holding A Perp Until The Police Arrive

This is a discussion on Holding A Perp Until The Police Arrive within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by spclopr8tr I am not a cop. And I haven't even played one on TV. I picture you always being the robber in ...

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Thread: Holding A Perp Until The Police Arrive

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spclopr8tr View Post
    I am not a cop. And I haven't even played one on TV.
    I picture you always being the robber in Cops & Robbers.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    What if this person had just shot 30 people in WalMart, and was now just walking calmly to his vehicle?
    There is a high degree of probability that holding him at gunpoint until the police arrive isn't really a consideration.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by retired badge 1 View Post
    The best policy, in my opinion, is to be a responsible citizen by providing accurate and objective reporting to law enforcement officers and appearing as a witness when called upon to do so. Even doing that will probably result in questions about your abilities, motivations, and intentions.
    Just remember, this is no picnic either. I recently received a witness subpoena for a crime that occurred in the spring of 2010. The accused in the 2010 case was arrested shortly after the event but the trial has been postponed several times due to the accused being incarcerated and re-incarcerated on other, unrelated, charges. Now, 9 years later, I have the opportunity to appear in a trail that, if convicted, will result in the alleged perpetrator gong back to prison for a rather extended period. If he is not convicted, he will be out on the streets with nothing to do but fume over the few individuals who testified against him in court.

    I was not much more than an accidental bystander in the 2010 episode but the fall-out has confirmed my strong conviction that I have a concealed carry permit and a deadly weapon tucked into my trousers for the exclusive purpose of protecting myself and my inner-circle. I will not be detaining any yahoos I observe out in the publicsphere, no matter what abhorrent behaviors they exhibit.

    I know there are some forum members who seek out an opportunity to be the good guy with the gun who saves the day when there are no cops around, but that's not me.

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  5. #34
    Member Array Nifty's Avatar
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    I think this happens a lot on TV and film. Maybe tear a lamp cord and tie him up with it? LOL

  6. #35
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    Exceptionally well put. You have a way of weaving the C.R.S. on this with your considerable experience into elegant prose. A few minor comments, below.

    Quote Originally Posted by retired badge 1 View Post
    Your best source of information on this topic is probably your state laws. In most areas each public library will have a full set of the criminal code and statutes in the reference section. Of course, we all know that given one set of laws and two lawyers to interpret said laws we will always get at least 3 different opinions, along with a bill for legal advice.
    I'm no lawyer, so I can offer no legal advice. I can offer my 2 cents, however, and given what lawyers charge, I don't think anyone can misconstrue it as "advice." ;)

    Here in Colorado the statutes provide for a citizen's arrest in the case of a crime committed in one's presence, and such force as may be necessary to subdue the perpetrator and deliver him to the sheriff is specifically authorized. I certainly do not offer this as a recommended course of action, only noting that there is statutory law on these points.
    Covered under CRS 18-1-704, and it applies both to defense of self and another/others.

    Is it a good idea to attempt to detain a violent offender? Probably not, and certainly not in all circumstances.
    By law, it's allowed on if:
    - you reasonably believe a lesser degree of force is inadequate
    AND
    - you have reasonable ground to believe -- and you do believe -- that you or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or receiving great bodily injury
    OR
    - the other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force while committing or attempting to commit burglary, kidnapping, robbery, sexual assault

    You cannot provoke the other person or be the initial aggressor, which is WHY it's a great idea to leave it holstered until absolutely necessary.

    Deadly force is authorized in home intrusions, unlawful trespass, attempted theft, criminal mischief, or criminal tampering involving property, or arson.

    EXCEPTION: Only includes dwellings. Does not include property like a car.

    You do not have a duty to retreat.

    Does that about cover it? At least for Colorado...

    Taking any action may invite claims of civil liability. Any time a person takes physical custody of another person that action carries with it a duty to exercise due care for the safety and well-being of the person in custody. This applies equally to law enforcement officers and citizens acting on their own, even with full legal authority. This is not something to be undertaken lightly, even in states like Colorado with our so-called "make my day law" (which, by the way, was adopted primarily to shield homeowners insurance companies from civil liabilities, not to provide citizens with civil or criminal immunity).

    The use of deadly force against a fleeing felon is very difficult to justify, and likely to result in criminal and civil action. About the only reasonable scenario would be when one has certain knowledge that the fleeing felon is intent upon committing a violent and heinous crime unless stopped immediately (a standard that is likely to be impossible to establish under any circumstances).
    Obviously, a mass shooter running away from you while still firing rounds at people would qualify, and I'd have no qualms about stopping him even if he were running away from me.

    The question is, having just demonstrated the propensity, would that constitute reasonable belief of continued deadly crime?

    I have been a retired cop for 24 years. I can't imagine any circumstance in which I would attempt to forcefully detain anyone pending a police response, and the only circumstances I can imagine in which I would use deadly force are those when it is demonstrable that the perpetrator is committing a crime likely to cause the death or serious injury of myself or another innocent person. A fleeing felon is generally viewed as demonstrating the strong desire to leave us alone, so any use of force is subject to question.
    Ahh... You answered my question.

    The best policy, in my opinion, is to be a responsible citizen by providing accurate and objective reporting to law enforcement officers and appearing as a witness when called upon to do so. Even doing that will probably result in questions about your abilities, motivations, and intentions.

    There is no simple answer to such questions, and certainly no answer that will apply to any situation in any location or state.
    As my grandfather once told me, "Know the law forwards, backwards, and cold, then use the best judgement God gave you. You can't hope for anything more."

    But we can sharpen our judgement with drills designed to hone our ability to differentiate between situations where shooting is illegal, gray area, and justified.

    I think Colorado has done a nice job of minimizing the gray area, but would like more discussion on it.

    My greatest fear is that I would find myself in a situation ever requiring it. Hence, Rule #1: Avoid such situations if at all possible, and Rule #2: Exit such situations, if at all possible. I'll use whatever force is required, but only after exhausting all other options.

    My second greatest fear is being in a situation where I didn't have a clear understanding of the best course of action. In the past, my personal guidance has always been, "Shoot only to protect life and limb of self and others in the immediate vicinity," but CRS allows for a few more than that, as mentioned above.
    How many times must we see defenseless people die before we realize being defenseless is NOT the answer? // The First protects the Second and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect everything else.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Exceptionally well put. You have a way of weaving the C.R.S. on this with your considerable experience into elegant prose. A few minor comments, below.



    I'm no lawyer, so I can offer no legal advice. I can offer my 2 cents, however, and given what lawyers charge, I don't think anyone can misconstrue it as "advice." ;)



    Covered under CRS 18-1-704, and it applies both to defense of self and another/others.



    By law, it's allowed on if:
    - you reasonably believe a lesser degree of force is inadequate
    AND
    - you have reasonable ground to believe -- and you do believe -- that you or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or receiving great bodily injury
    OR
    - the other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force while committing or attempting to commit burglary, kidnapping, robbery, sexual assault

    You cannot provoke the other person or be the initial aggressor, which is WHY it's a great idea to leave it holstered until absolutely necessary.

    Deadly force is authorized in home intrusions, unlawful trespass, attempted theft, criminal mischief, or criminal tampering involving property, or arson.

    EXCEPTION: Only includes dwellings. Does not include property like a car.

    You do not have a duty to retreat.

    Does that about cover it? At least for Colorado...



    Obviously, a mass shooter running away from you while still firing rounds at people would qualify, and I'd have no qualms about stopping him even if he were running away from me.

    The question is, having just demonstrated the propensity, would that constitute reasonable belief of continued deadly crime?



    Ahh... You answered my question.



    As my grandfather once told me, "Know the law forwards, backwards, and cold, then use the best judgement God gave you. You can't hope for anything more."

    But we can sharpen our judgement with drills designed to hone our ability to differentiate between situations where shooting is illegal, gray area, and justified.

    I think Colorado has done a nice job of minimizing the gray area, but would like more discussion on it.

    My greatest fear is that I would find myself in a situation ever requiring it. Hence, Rule #1: Avoid such situations if at all possible, and Rule #2: Exit such situations, if at all possible. I'll use whatever force is required, but only after exhausting all other options.

    My second greatest fear is being in a situation where I didn't have a clear understanding of the best course of action. In the past, my personal guidance has always been, "Shoot only to protect life and limb of self and others in the immediate vicinity," but CRS allows for a few more than that, as mentioned above.
    Very good comments, and well presented. I appreciate your critique.
    Rock and Glock and since9 like this.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammeow View Post
    Treat em to the cowboy way
    Hold him at gunpoint while he changes out the bedding straw in the barn? Egads!
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  9. #38
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    If I pull my firearm and don't have to discharge it, I'm ok with that. If the threat escalates then all options are on.
    Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more. George S. Patton

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifty View Post
    I think this happens a lot on TV and film. Maybe tear a lamp cord and tie him up with it? LOL
    I assume you are kidding, as depending on the crime (unless you eyewitness them commit a violent felony or murder) that would be considered "unlawful restraint" (same as cuffing them), & I believe that's a felony here in Texas. Someone witnessing the El Paso shooter had the right to stop him (ie bullet to the head), IF they were witnessing it first hand, but alas, no one whom was armed did.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrabbyOldGuy View Post
    If the perp flees, you become the felon should you fire. Unless the threat remains or until it renews.

    The fireman today committed multiple felonies by drawing on the open carrier and leading him away at gun point.
    And what felonies did he commit?
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  12. #41
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    Aggravated kidnapping, for one. That is, using force to move a person. In the original reports, he held the carrier at gun point and led him out of the store and into a field.

    Of course, he used his weapon in a threatening manner even though the open carrier had broken no laws.

    Iím not suggesting any jury would convict him. But, he definitely put himself in jeopardy.
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  13. #42
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    Well, Barney, I pointed my gun at 'im and he just started begg'n for mercy like what he's do'n now.

    Put yer gun away, Gomer, before Andy gets here. I'll handle this.

    Hey, you, get back here!

    Go get 'im, Barney.
    since9 likes this.
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  14. #43
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    I have no intent to play police, detain, restrain or capture anyone. If a badguy wants to go the other way, I will certainly let him, its that simple. Sure there are a few exceptions to that sort of thing- like the armed active shooter, terrorism or something similar. My State has a provision for citizens arrest but like I said, .. that aint my gig. If I am in a position to arrest someone, I am likely in a position to just walk away from them. I carry a gun to protect myself, not to act as a public sentinel.
    Think like a man of action - Act like a man of thought

  15. #44
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    Reminds me of a story my uncle told me many years ago. He just got out of the army back in 1955 and was at his mother's (my grandma's) house. My uncle is a big, intimidating man by the way. A man was stealing some things out of a shed on their property and putting in the bed of a pickup. My uncle got a shotgun, pointed it at the thief, and told him to stay put until a deputy arrived. My uncle had called police first before going outside.

    The thief said, "You wouldn't really shoot me if I try to leave would you?"

    My uncle said, "Why don't you try and we'll both find out."

    The police got there and arrested the thief.

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