This is a discussion on Holding A Perp Until The Police Arrive within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by spclopr8tr I am not a cop. And I haven't even played one on TV. I picture you always being the robber in ...
Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
I was not much more than an accidental bystander in the 2010 episode but the fall-out has confirmed my strong conviction that I have a concealed carry permit and a deadly weapon tucked into my trousers for the exclusive purpose of protecting myself and my inner-circle. I will not be detaining any yahoos I observe out in the publicsphere, no matter what abhorrent behaviors they exhibit.
I know there are some forum members who seek out an opportunity to be the good guy with the gun who saves the day when there are no cops around, but that's not me.
I think this happens a lot on TV and film. Maybe tear a lamp cord and tie him up with it? LOL
Exceptionally well put. You have a way of weaving the C.R.S. on this with your considerable experience into elegant prose. A few minor comments, below.
Covered under CRS 18-1-704, and it applies both to defense of self and another/others.Here in Colorado the statutes provide for a citizen's arrest in the case of a crime committed in one's presence, and such force as may be necessary to subdue the perpetrator and deliver him to the sheriff is specifically authorized. I certainly do not offer this as a recommended course of action, only noting that there is statutory law on these points.
By law, it's allowed on if:Is it a good idea to attempt to detain a violent offender? Probably not, and certainly not in all circumstances.
- you reasonably believe a lesser degree of force is inadequate
- you have reasonable ground to believe -- and you do believe -- that you or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or receiving great bodily injury
- the other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force while committing or attempting to commit burglary, kidnapping, robbery, sexual assault
You cannot provoke the other person or be the initial aggressor, which is WHY it's a great idea to leave it holstered until absolutely necessary.
Deadly force is authorized in home intrusions, unlawful trespass, attempted theft, criminal mischief, or criminal tampering involving property, or arson.
EXCEPTION: Only includes dwellings. Does not include property like a car.
You do not have a duty to retreat.
Does that about cover it? At least for Colorado...
Obviously, a mass shooter running away from you while still firing rounds at people would qualify, and I'd have no qualms about stopping him even if he were running away from me.Taking any action may invite claims of civil liability. Any time a person takes physical custody of another person that action carries with it a duty to exercise due care for the safety and well-being of the person in custody. This applies equally to law enforcement officers and citizens acting on their own, even with full legal authority. This is not something to be undertaken lightly, even in states like Colorado with our so-called "make my day law" (which, by the way, was adopted primarily to shield homeowners insurance companies from civil liabilities, not to provide citizens with civil or criminal immunity).
The use of deadly force against a fleeing felon is very difficult to justify, and likely to result in criminal and civil action. About the only reasonable scenario would be when one has certain knowledge that the fleeing felon is intent upon committing a violent and heinous crime unless stopped immediately (a standard that is likely to be impossible to establish under any circumstances).
The question is, having just demonstrated the propensity, would that constitute reasonable belief of continued deadly crime?
Ahh... You answered my question.I have been a retired cop for 24 years. I can't imagine any circumstance in which I would attempt to forcefully detain anyone pending a police response, and the only circumstances I can imagine in which I would use deadly force are those when it is demonstrable that the perpetrator is committing a crime likely to cause the death or serious injury of myself or another innocent person. A fleeing felon is generally viewed as demonstrating the strong desire to leave us alone, so any use of force is subject to question.
As my grandfather once told me, "Know the law forwards, backwards, and cold, then use the best judgement God gave you. You can't hope for anything more."The best policy, in my opinion, is to be a responsible citizen by providing accurate and objective reporting to law enforcement officers and appearing as a witness when called upon to do so. Even doing that will probably result in questions about your abilities, motivations, and intentions.
There is no simple answer to such questions, and certainly no answer that will apply to any situation in any location or state.
But we can sharpen our judgement with drills designed to hone our ability to differentiate between situations where shooting is illegal, gray area, and justified.
I think Colorado has done a nice job of minimizing the gray area, but would like more discussion on it.
My greatest fear is that I would find myself in a situation ever requiring it. Hence, Rule #1: Avoid such situations if at all possible, and Rule #2: Exit such situations, if at all possible. I'll use whatever force is required, but only after exhausting all other options.
My second greatest fear is being in a situation where I didn't have a clear understanding of the best course of action. In the past, my personal guidance has always been, "Shoot only to protect life and limb of self and others in the immediate vicinity," but CRS allows for a few more than that, as mentioned above.
How many times must we see defenseless people die before we realize being defenseless is NOT the answer? // The First protects the Second and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect everything else.
If I pull my firearm and don't have to discharge it, I'm ok with that. If the threat escalates then all options are on.
Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more. George S. Patton
NRA Benefactor Life Member
Live Well, Laugh Often, Defend Yourself
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
This land abounds in ruffians and varmints. Their numbers are legion, their evil skills commensurate.
Aggravated kidnapping, for one. That is, using force to move a person. In the original reports, he held the carrier at gun point and led him out of the store and into a field.
Of course, he used his weapon in a threatening manner even though the open carrier had broken no laws.
Iím not suggesting any jury would convict him. But, he definitely put himself in jeopardy.
Well, Barney, I pointed my gun at 'im and he just started begg'n for mercy like what he's do'n now.
Put yer gun away, Gomer, before Andy gets here. I'll handle this.
Hey, you, get back here!
Go get 'im, Barney.
I have no intent to play police, detain, restrain or capture anyone. If a badguy wants to go the other way, I will certainly let him, its that simple. Sure there are a few exceptions to that sort of thing- like the armed active shooter, terrorism or something similar. My State has a provision for citizens arrest but like I said, .. that aint my gig. If I am in a position to arrest someone, I am likely in a position to just walk away from them. I carry a gun to protect myself, not to act as a public sentinel.
Think like a man of action - Act like a man of thought
Reminds me of a story my uncle told me many years ago. He just got out of the army back in 1955 and was at his mother's (my grandma's) house. My uncle is a big, intimidating man by the way. A man was stealing some things out of a shed on their property and putting in the bed of a pickup. My uncle got a shotgun, pointed it at the thief, and told him to stay put until a deputy arrived. My uncle had called police first before going outside.
The thief said, "You wouldn't really shoot me if I try to leave would you?"
My uncle said, "Why don't you try and we'll both find out."
The police got there and arrested the thief.