CCW in church an insurance question. - Page 3

CCW in church an insurance question.

This is a discussion on CCW in church an insurance question. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BillG174 The church I attend has a membership of 23,000. I am on the security team and although I have a Kansas ...

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 31 to 35 of 35
Like Tree40Likes

Thread: CCW in church an insurance question.

  1. #31
    Member Array retired badge 1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Pueblo, Colorado
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by BillG174 View Post
    The church I attend has a membership of 23,000. I am on the security team and although I have a Kansas CCW license the only security team members that are armed at those people who are either current LE or retired LE. This is due to liability issues.
    Current LE or retired LE means nothing in the context of providing security at a house of worship. Anyone acting on behalf of the church is an agent of the church and the church may be held liable for whatever they do (or fail to do). Limiting armed participation to active or retired cops might (stress the word "might") buy some sympathy from a jury member or two, but the church remains exposed to liability claims regardless.

    Many, many business establishments have posted their premises to prohibit firearms. This is very commonly done as a means of distancing the business entity from claims of liability in the event of an unfortunate act. Employee used a firearm against an active felon? Employee violated company policy, thus acted outside the scope of employment, and the employer cannot be held liable. Customer with licensed concealed carry piece acted in defense of self or others? Customer violated company policy, thus the company cannot be held liable for unauthorized acts.

    Your church has a security committee with specific members authorized to carry firearms on the premises in the event of a serious criminal act? Whether those members are active or retired cops means next to nothing at the courthouse, they are acting on behalf of the church and the church might well be held liable. Even if the church carries liability insurance specifically covering acts of staff or authorized personnel in providing security, when a claim arises the insurance company's first response will be to disavow liability and distance the insurance company from the specific acts of the individual, perhaps claiming that the LEO member was actually performing public duties on behalf of his employing agency and not as a member of the church.

    I'm not at all sure that these things can be fully insured to any degree. Individual policies will probably invite insurers to disavow actions taken as part of an organized church security team. Church policies will probably invite insurers to disavow members actions as beyond the scope of responsibilities or duties.

    We live in modern North America. Whenever anything ugly happens there will be litigation seeking the deepest pockets available, and those with the pockets will be trying to pass the buck.

    Try walking into your friendly neighborhood insurance agent's office and explaining that you plan on serving on a 2300 member church's security team while armed with a deadly weapon, and when the worst possible thing happens you want someone to open up the checkbook to make all claims go away. The premium you pay will probably be nothing because no company is going to issue the policy.
    Mike1956 likes this.

  2. #32
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion county, Ohio
    Posts
    32,563
    Quote Originally Posted by BillG174 View Post
    The church I attend has a membership of 23,000. I am on the security team and although I have a Kansas CCW license the only security team members that are armed at those people who are either current LE or retired LE. This is due to liability issues.
    The personal liability issues would dissuade me from being a member of any unpaid security team.
    retired badge 1 likes this.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

    "Slaves, enjoy your freedom." Chuck Klosterman

  3. #33
    Member Array DrummerMike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    65
    I agree with Cypher, Brotherhood Mutual specializes in this and has tons of resources to help you get a team started and for a current team. That is what is used at the church I attend. It definitely doesn't hurt to have personal coverage as well. I have US Lawshield and thankfully have never had to use it, but I know someone who did and they were a tremendous help to him. Good luck!
    Beretta 92 FS Compact Inox
    CZ 2075 RAMI
    CZ P-07
    CZ P-10c
    Walther PPS

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #34
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion county, Ohio
    Posts
    32,563
    Quote Originally Posted by DrummerMike View Post
    I agree with Cypher, Brotherhood Mutual specializes in this and has tons of resources to help you get a team started and for a current team. That is what is used at the church I attend. It definitely doesn't hurt to have personal coverage as well. I have US Lawshield and thankfully have never had to use it, but I know someone who did and they were a tremendous help to him. Good luck!
    I would love to hear the details, minus personal stuff, of someone who has actually used benefits from one of these entities.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

    "Slaves, enjoy your freedom." Chuck Klosterman

  6. #35
    Member Array since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    428
    Quote Originally Posted by ShenandoahValley View Post
    We've developed a Safety and Security committee at my church and we've already established a few things of that needed updating before I joined. Carrying is something a few of us do but we do it on the down low as we try and figure out how to get this through as we know there will be blowback from some.
    There are, distinctly, two categories into which this falls:

    1. Carry by officially sanctioned members of the church administration, including pastor, elders, and deacons. This is where the church administration says, "We would like to allow or sanction members of the church leadership to carry." The inherent minimum standard is that it's done with both their "knowledge and approval.

    2. Carry by a member of the church as a member of the church, with or without the knowledge of official church leadership. They may have knowledge of it, but approval is tacit or less by virtue of never having taken an official position on it. It's precisely the same as a store who has not posted his location, so some people may be carrying or they may not.

    We've consulted with the church's insurance co and this is something that has yet to be tested within the company policies (shooting someone at church)...
    Obviously, their involvement would vary significantly depending on both your state laws and the actual insurance contract. This is where your church should seek the advice of an attorney, specifically asking the question:

    Which, if any, is the best scenario with respect to church liability?

    a. Expressly prohibit all carry by stating so in all practical forums i.e. church website, weekly bulletins/programs, posting at entrances
    a(1). Prohibit CC only
    a(2). Prohibit OC only

    b. Allow all carry via "silence is consent."

    c. Expressly allow all carry by the same disclosure as in a.

    Don't ask lawyers about the best way to protect your church from an active shooter. That's outside their area of expertise. For that, ask a profession in physical and/or personnel security.

    I think you'll find that if it is lawful to carry a firearm in church in your state, b. is probably your best answer if you want to allow people to carry. If any patron asks, "May I carry in your church," the only answer then becomes, "That's up to you."

    ...and they've recommended we seek out a purchase of Personal Coverage for this who carry from those who carry.
    Interestingly enough, adding a rider to the church's insurance policy can in some cases increase your liability, as it's an acknowledgement that the church a) knew of carry, b) approved of carry, and c) provided coverage for those who carry. Courts often translate c) to mean "assumed responsibility for those who carry," so any settlement exceeds coverage, the church may be held accountable for the difference.

    Again, I recommend you seek the counsel of an attorney specializing in liability insurance.
    How many times must we see defenseless people die before we realize being defenseless is NOT the answer? // The First protects the Second and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect everything else.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •