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Is it old age or just a caliber I don't like much?

This is a discussion on Is it old age or just a caliber I don't like much? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I’m kind of amazed that not one soul mentioned anything about AKs. There was a fair amount of talk about ARs, but nothing on AKs. ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    I’m kind of amazed that not one soul mentioned anything about AKs. There was a fair amount of talk about ARs, but nothing on AKs.

    I have a number ARs, and AK-47s. I like them both. I trust the ammo supply for 5.56 more than commie block ammo, and darned near all iron sights on any AR 15s are better for me to hit with than Ivan’s sights, but the AK-47s offer lots of fun, reliability, and versatility not found on an AR. Ie side folding, or wire under folding stocks.

    Those stocks when folded make for a much shorter rifle, and something that might be of lots more use in certain situations. Especially considering that some can be fired with the stocks in the folded positions.

  2. #62
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    I own only one pistol in 9mm and I never shoot it. I think the contrarian in me gets annoyed at the fairly steady stream of magazine articles that seem to be intended to assure the reader that 9 mm is good enough with modern bullets. If you need to be constantly reassured maybe you should just change. I don't recall ever seeing an article claiming that with modern bullets the 45 ACP is suitable for a carry round.

    AK's...ugh. They look like what they are, mass produced in a tractor factory. Not saying that they don't get the job done but unless you have a Soviet fetish I fail to see the draw (not that there's anything wrong with a soviet fetish if that's what you're in to)
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  3. #63
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  5. #64
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    Might be that you don't like carrying a 9mm because it appears you are talking about a double stack in polymer. I don't like carrying double stacks or polymer. I do like thin and small though; why I pack a Kimber Micro 9 or Kahr MK 40 most of the time. I'm a steel or alloy person, and most often it's single stacks. The only double stack I carry on occasion is a CZ 75 D PCR. Used to carry an LCP now and then for a ultra small lightweight 380, but that was polymer (too snappy); now it's an RM380 in alloy/steel. If higher power is in order, then it's an S&W 686+ 3" 7 shot 357 magnum, or S&W 629 3" 6 shot 44 magnum.
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  6. #65
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    In semi autos, I’m of the opinion that the 45 and 40 are the most all round useful cartridges for all purposes. From biped to an outdoorsman type, it will be sufficient, especially with a change of ammo.

    The 9mm for me is about like a 22 rimfire, in that it’s cheap and fun to shoot. It’s sufficient for biped defense, but one must dither more about ammo selection.

    In revolver cartridges I like either the 38spl or 44 spl for its versatility, especially for the handloader.
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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    In semi autos, I’m of the opinion that the 45 and 40 are the most all round useful cartridges for all purposes. From biped to an outdoorsman type, it will be sufficient, especially with a change of ammo.
    Most of us don't live in Grizzly Country. In the U.S., that means Alaska, North Cascades National Park and Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest in the very NW tip of Washington, and the area in and around Yellowstone National Park.

    Here in Colorado, we have an abundance of Black Bear. They are very different animals than grizzlies. Many times I've camped in the back country and had black bear sniffing around my tent, including a one-time event of meeting a breathy muzzle stuck into my breathing hole in a bivvy sack. A simple, "Go away!" was sufficient to dissuade the curious creature, but I do sleep with the same 9mm I use for bipedal defense.

    "Black bears are very different mentally, than grizzly bears. Black bears come in red, brown, blonde, and black color phases, but they are all black bear species and should be considered “black bears” regardless of color phase. While black bears have much the same physical qualities (normally smaller) of grizzly bears, they GENERALLY have a much different mindset.

    To stop black bears, all you have to do is hurt them; you do not need to kill them. Almost any center fire handgun cartridge will dissuade a black bear if you hit them well with it. " - Source

    Yes, even a .22 rimfire.

    Colorado has a number of animals that are far more dangerous than black bear.

    The 9mm for me is about like a 22 rimfire, in that it’s cheap and fun to shoot. It’s sufficient for biped defense, but one must dither more about ammo selection.
    I disagree. First, I'm not one to "dither" (to act nervously or indecisively) about ammo selection. The decision is fairly straightforward, as I carry for self-defense, and the rounds I carry (Winchester PDX1 Defender 147 gr 9mm Luger) are equally as effective in stopping humans as they are in stopping an attack of any beast that's likely to be a threat in the back country, be they bighorn sheep, mountain goat, black bear, elk, moose, coyote, wolf, or mountain lion, and yes, I've encountered all of them here in Colorado. Please note I said, "stop," not "hunt." If I'm hunting, I'm using a hunting round matched to the prey. But I'm not talking about hunting. I'm talking about stopping.

    There's a reason they say "top ammo manufacturers have worked tirelessly to develop law enforcement ammo that provides amazing performance for self defense," and any of the rounds listed there will do.

    In revolver cartridges I like either the 38spl or 44 spl for its versatility, especially for the handloader.
    When I used to camp in grizzly country, however, I always carried a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 Magnum1. Again, grizzlies have seriously different mindsets when it comes to what it will do after initial contact.

    Obviously, the best course of action is to avoid that contact in the first place, regardless of what you're carrying.

    1Let's examine the difference between .44 Magnum and .44 Special loads. To facilitate an accurate comparison, I'm going to examine a top brand (Winchester) and a common mass (240 gr).

    Is it old age or just a caliber I don't like much?-ammunition-comparison-44-special-vs-magnum.jpg

    From this, we immediately observe two things. First, the Magnum round contains two and a half times more energy than does the Special round as they leave the barrel. Second, the Magnum round still carries more than twice the energy at 100 yards than does the Special round at just 25 yards.

    Although each of these rounds could be designed in different ways (JHP, lead flat, lead round), the Magnum round is designed for expansion, enabling it to impart significantly greater impact in a shorter period of time and distance on target, thereby creating more shock and damage. Even so, I've seen two videos of grizzlies being put down while charging, and in both the shooters emptied all six .44 magnum rounds into the grizzly before it dropped. Therefore, if I were in grizzly country, I'd definitely want a .44 Magnum, preferably in a JHP like Winchester's Dual Bond 44 Rem Mag 240 gr.

    Here in Colorado, however, we don't have grizzlies. Black bear do not like humans. They stay away. Although moms can indeed be defensive around cubs, they're still highly unlikely to do anything but run after they've been shot, all anecdotal evidence to the contrary aside.
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  8. #67
    VIP Member Array forester58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Most of us don't live in Grizzly Country. In the U.S., that means Alaska, North Cascades National Park and Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest in the very NW tip of Washington, and the area in and around Yellowstone National Park.

    Here in Colorado, we have an abundance of Black Bear. They are very different animals than grizzlies. Many times I've camped in the back country and had black bear sniffing around my tent, including a one-time event of meeting a breathy muzzle stuck into my breathing hole in a bivvy sack. A simple, "Go away!" was sufficient to dissuade the curious creature, but I do sleep with the same 9mm I use for bipedal defense.

    "Black bears are very different mentally, than grizzly bears. Black bears come in red, brown, blonde, and black color phases, but they are all black bear species and should be considered “black bears” regardless of color phase. While black bears have much the same physical qualities (normally smaller) of grizzly bears, they GENERALLY have a much different mindset.

    To stop black bears, all you have to do is hurt them; you do not need to kill them. Almost any center fire handgun cartridge will dissuade a black bear if you hit them well with it. " - Source

    Yes, even a .22 rimfire.

    Colorado has a number of animals that are far more dangerous than black bear.



    I disagree. First, I'm not one to "dither" (to act nervously or indecisively) about ammo selection. The decision is fairly straightforward, as I carry for self-defense, and the rounds I carry (Winchester PDX1 Defender 147 gr 9mm Luger) are equally as effective in stopping humans as they are in stopping an attack of any beast that's likely to be a threat in the back country, be they bighorn sheep, mountain goat, black bear, elk, moose, coyote, wolf, or mountain lion, and yes, I've encountered all of them here in Colorado. Please note I said, "stop," not "hunt." If I'm hunting, I'm using a hunting round matched to the prey. But I'm not talking about hunting. I'm talking about stopping.

    There's a reason they say "top ammo manufacturers have worked tirelessly to develop law enforcement ammo that provides amazing performance for self defense," and any of the rounds listed there will do.



    When I used to camp in grizzly country, however, I always carried a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 Magnum1. Again, grizzlies have seriously different mindsets when it comes to what it will do after initial contact.

    Obviously, the best course of action is to avoid that contact in the first place, regardless of what you're carrying.

    1Let's examine the difference between .44 Magnum and .44 Special loads. To facilitate an accurate comparison, I'm going to examine a top brand (Winchester) and a common mass (240 gr).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ammunition Comparison - 44 Special vs Magnum.jpg 
Views:	18 
Size:	90.9 KB 
ID:	303182

    From this, we immediately observe two things. First, the Magnum round contains two and a half times more energy than does the Special round as they leave the barrel. Second, the Magnum round still carries more than twice the energy at 100 yards than does the Special round at just 25 yards.

    Although each of these rounds could be designed in different ways (JHP, lead flat, lead round), the Magnum round is designed for expansion, enabling it to impart significantly greater impact in a shorter period of time and distance on target, thereby creating more shock and damage. Even so, I've seen two videos of grizzlies being put down while charging, and in both the shooters emptied all six .44 magnum rounds into the grizzly before it dropped. Therefore, if I were in grizzly country, I'd definitely want a .44 Magnum, preferably in a JHP like Winchester's Dual Bond 44 Rem Mag 240 gr.

    Here in Colorado, however, we don't have grizzlies. Black bear do not like humans. They stay away. Although moms can indeed be defensive around cubs, they're still highly unlikely to do anything but run after they've been shot, all anecdotal evidence to the contrary aside.
    I know that there are online maps that show the areas you mention as Grizzly habitat but, their range today is much,much larger including NE Washington, North Idaho and the entire western half of Montana all the way north to Great Falls and in Wyoming the entire western half east to the sage brush steppes of the central badlands. I have personally encountered Grizzly in al those areas while working in the woods and its getting bigger every year.

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Most of us don't live in Grizzly Country. In the U.S., that means Alaska, North Cascades National Park and Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest in the very NW tip of Washington, and the area in and around Yellowstone National Park.

    Here in Colorado, we have an abundance of Black Bear. They are very different animals than grizzlies. Many times I've camped in the back country and had black bear sniffing around my tent, including a one-time event of meeting a breathy muzzle stuck into my breathing hole in a bivvy sack. A simple, "Go away!" was sufficient to dissuade the curious creature, but I do sleep with the same 9mm I use for bipedal defense.
    "Black bears are very different mentally, than grizzly bears. Black bears come in red, brown, blonde, and black color phases, but they are all black bear species and should be considered “black bears” regardless of color phase. While black bears have much the same physical qualities (normally smaller) of grizzly bears, they GENERALLY have a much different mindset.

    To stop black bears, all you have to do is hurt them; you do not need to kill them. Almost any center fire handgun cartridge will dissuade a black bear if you hit them well with it. " - Source

    Yes, even a .22 rimfire.

    Colorado has a number of animals that are far more dangerous than black bear.



    I disagree. First, I'm not one to "dither" (to act nervously or indecisively) about ammo selection. The decision is fairly straightforward, as I carry for self-defense, and the rounds I carry (Winchester PDX1 Defender 147 gr 9mm Luger) are equally as effective in stopping humans as they are in stopping an attack of any beast that's likely to be a threat in the back country, be they bighorn sheep, mountain goat, black bear, elk, moose, coyote, wolf, or mountain lion, and yes, I've encountered all of them here in Colorado. Please note I said, "stop," not "hunt." If I'm hunting, I'm using a hunting round matched to the prey. But I'm not talking about hunting. I'm talking about stopping.

    There's a reason they say "top ammo manufacturers have worked tirelessly to develop law enforcement ammo that provides amazing performance for self defense," and any of the rounds listed there will do.



    When I used to camp in grizzly country, however, I always carried a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 Magnum1. Again, grizzlies have seriously different mindsets when it comes to what it will do after initial contact.

    Obviously, the best course of action is to avoid that contact in the first place, regardless of what you're carrying.

    1Let's examine the difference between .44 Magnum and .44 Special loads. To facilitate an accurate comparison, I'm going to examine a top brand (Winchester) and a common mass (240 gr).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ammunition Comparison - 44 Special vs Magnum.jpg 
Views:	18 
Size:	90.9 KB 
ID:	303182

    From this, we immediately observe two things. First, the Magnum round contains two and a half times more energy than does the Special round as they leave the barrel. Second, the Magnum round still carries more than twice the energy at 100 yards than does the Special round at just 25 yards.

    Although each of these rounds could be designed in different ways (JHP, lead flat, lead round), the Magnum round is designed for expansion, enabling it to impart significantly greater impact in a shorter period of time and distance on target, thereby creating more shock and damage. Even so, I've seen two videos of grizzlies being put down while charging, and in both the shooters emptied all six .44 magnum rounds into the grizzly before it dropped. Therefore, if I were in grizzly country, I'd definitely want a .44 Magnum, preferably in a JHP like Winchester's Dual Bond 44 Rem Mag 240 gr.

    Here in Colorado, however, we don't have grizzlies. Black bear do not like humans. They stay away. Although moms can indeed be defensive around cubs, they're still highly unlikely to do anything but run after they've been shot, all anecdotal evidence to the contrary aside.
    Well thank you, but it doesn’t change my opinion or preferences.

    And, my 44spl’s are well above your listed. As a matter of fact, at 1200 FPS, they are well above your lists velocities for the Magnum.
    But that is why I stated “ especially for the hand loader”

    But if you like your 9, you can keep your 9
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  10. #69
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    "Here in Colorado, however, we don't have grizzlies".

    I learned something new today. When I lived in South Fork, Colorado (west end of the San Juan Valley) back in the early 1950's, we sure thought we had 'em (they don't look like big black bears)
    I hate to hear they are gone.

  11. #70
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    For me the caliber that I can shoot but have never had an interest in is the .44 special. I own 2 .44 mag revolvers and do reload for the .44mag, and could for the .44 special. If I want a soft shooting .44 load I just use the magnum brass that I have lots of. I guess if I ever got into some of the smaller framed revolvers that are .44 special only it would make more sense to me. I can't imagine I would ever want a large framed revolver that was .44 special only.
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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    Well thank you, but it doesn’t change my opinion or preferences.
    Hmm...

    And, my 44spl’s are well above your listed. As a matter of fact, at 1200 FPS, they are well above your lists velocities for the Magnum.
    Then they're not "specials."

    But that is why I stated “ especially for the hand loader”
    Must be that old, "hand loader license to call your loads whatever you want" trick. Heck, if I had your hand loading talents, I'd call 'em, "Magnum Shorts," or "Hyperpressure Specials."

    Definition: "Another key factor fueling the Special’s comeback is its ability to fit in the longer chambers of the aforementioned .44 Magnum revolvers, much like the .38 Special fits in the longer chambers of the .357 Magnum. This makes the .44 Special cartridge an attractive alternative for reduced velocity target shooting and plinking."

    Sure, the length is the same as a special, but the loading isn't.

    But if you like your 9, you can keep your 9
    If you like your opinion or preferences, you can keep your opinion or preferences.

    And keep on loading those magnum-specials!

    On a more serious note, have you calculated barrel pressure based on bore diameter, barrel length, projectile weight and projectile velocity?

    Using this system and your 1,200 fps figure, you're hitting about 31,848 psi.

    Since SAAMI max cart press specs have .44 specials at 15,500 psi and .44 magnums at 36,000 psi, you're well within magnum limits, but definitely way out of special territory.

    I also observe the specials and magnums both use a .060 in (1.5 mm) rim thickness. I'm curious as to how the re-use limit on the special cases (1.16 in (29 mm)) compares to that on the magnum cases (1.285 in (32.6 mm))? With twice the pressure, do you observe non-reusable cracking/splitting, or elongation (and case thinning) in half the number of firings, or is it closer to about 71% of the number of firings?
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimCunn View Post
    "Here in Colorado, however, we don't have grizzlies".

    I learned something new today. When I lived in South Fork, Colorado (west end of the San Juan Valley) back in the early 1950's, we sure thought we had 'em (they don't look like big black bears)
    I hate to hear they are gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by forester58 View Post
    I know that there are online maps that show the areas you mention as Grizzly habitat but, their range today is much,much larger including NE Washington, North Idaho and the entire western half of Montana all the way north to Great Falls and in Wyoming the entire western half east to the sage brush steppes of the central badlands. I have personally encountered Grizzly in al those areas while working in the woods and its getting bigger every year.
    The last time a grizzly was spotted in Colorado was back in 1973. There *might* be a grizzly back there somewhere, but with all the hikers all over the place, it's exceedingly unlikely. Doesn't mean they won't migrate back in sometime in the future, though. Currently, however, they're sticking to more northern and wetter climes.
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  14. #73
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    The .44 Special has always been "special" because of its latent potential potential which is there to be extracted by hand loaders.

    I do like the .44 Special in its own right. Love the modest, yet effective ballistics of its original loadings. Love the ease at which it may be judiciously "hotrodded" by an adventurous and studious hand loader. Love the history and sentimentality which swathes the cartridge. I love the unique configuration of the original large frame .44 Special revolvers, their tapered barrels and easy balance.
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    Just an FYI: Wildlife experts say the last official Grizzly reported in Colorado was in 1953 . . . and yes, experts have confirmed the sighting of a Grizzly in the North Cascades of WA in 2011.

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    Preference. I learned on 45ACP 1911s, carried them, and dropped them as soon as I shot my Hi-Power in 9 and haven't looked back. Modern 9mm JHP ammo is darn effective and there isn't another weapon that points as naturally for me. That said, I do own one SA/DA 45 for fun and training of others but its a beast and carrying it is a PITA. My P99AS on the other hand.....

    Preference.
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