Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper - Page 3

Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper

This is a discussion on Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I carry these light and fast bullets, 50 grain 9mm +P rated at 2000fps. Gel penetration is adequate, but barely. However, it fragments explosively and ...

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Thread: Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array Coconut's Avatar
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    I carry these light and fast bullets, 50 grain 9mm +P rated at 2000fps. Gel penetration is adequate, but barely. However, it fragments explosively and creates a big mess when it hits a fluid target. Against a solid target, the speed is enough to defeat level IIIA armor, otherwise capable of stopping .44 magnum bullets.



    The FBI protocol calls for 12" penetration because they want the bullet to reach a vital organ even if it enters the bad guy from the side. Liberty bullets are less likely to do this, as they explode within an inch of entry. However, the violent fragmentation would almost blow the arm off, leading to massive bleeding (not your regular neat little bullet hole bleeding). If it hits the torso, it's wide fragmentation pattern is more forgiving in terms of shot placement. If you get your bullet within an inch of the heart, a fragment will hit it.

    At 2000 fps it is capable of causing hydrostatic shock, which is a nice bonus.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    If you research how body armor works, it is easy to see what body armor is good at. A .44 slug is wider and slower. Small and fast projectiles slice through body armor. It might stop a .44, but it won't stop a knife.

    A brief search on this very forum will show you why Liberty is an overpriced gimmick. They are solving a problem invented by anti-gun media.
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TactiCarl View Post
    Well we were talking about .40 s&w the whole time but if you want to shift the discussion for no reason ok.

    >In this case the lighter bullet does indeed have more energy, but it is also traveling at more than 200 fps faster.
    Yes, I agree.

    >Now if we slow the 115 gr bullet down to 1100 fps, it only has 309 ft.lbs. of energy at the muzzle.
    Why would we be arbitrarily slowing down the bullet at the muzzle?? To say that when slowed (arbitrarily) that it has less energy than a heavier bullet = of course it does but bullets don't slow down arbitrarily. We're talking DGU ranges here of 10m and under. FWIW, 115 grain 9mm ammo penetrates within FBI standards.

    > BUT, just because the lighter bullet is going faster, it does not necessarily mean that it has more energy.
    I never said it would always equal more energy on target but it would to a point. That point would depend on so many variables that it would be very individualistic in nature so I can't say what that point is in every case and caliber. I've been saying lighter is better to a point the whole time. But feel free to argue against whatever points suit your fancy.

    I was trying to help the OP but I guess that failed. You guys can keep all the fat slow bullets and we can get on with our lives. I'm out.
    You have achieved Internet Fu level 40.
    These guys are just trying to help too. To change minds, you're going to have to post your own chrono data and pics of flesh shot with various grain bullets. Heavier bullets simply impart more energy into the target. Every hunter knows this.
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  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array Coconut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    If you research how body armor works, it is easy to see what body armor is good at. A .44 slug is wider and slower. Small and fast projectiles slice through body armor. It might stop a .44, but it won't stop a knife.

    A brief search on this very forum will show you why Liberty is an overpriced gimmick. They are solving a problem invented by anti-gun media.
    I don't get it, are you implying that armor penetration ability is bad? If it's true that a knife can go through a solid IIIA armor used in the video, then it's potentially fatal too.

    I have watched every liberty civil defense ballistic test on youtube, in clear gelatin, ballistic gelatin, and water jugs. The performance is there, as well as the hydrostatic shock effect. The only downside is that penetration can fall short of 12", which I'm willing to accept as a trade off for the wide fragmentation effect.

    At roughly $1 per round for 9mm, it's about the same price as most other self defense ammo out there, unless you buy online bulk. My Federal HST 124 grain 9mm +p is $1.25 each at the local store. It's not overpriced.
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  6. #35
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    Let’s use an analogy here.

    We’ll take a 2500 pound Honda Fit and 5000 pound Ford pick-up against a crack house.

    Now accelerate the Honda Fit to 90MPH (if it will go that fast) and the Ford pick-up to 70MPH and aim both at the crack house.

    Now when they both impact which will go further into or through the crack house???
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  7. #36
    Senior Member Array mathiasinthe314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    ...Now accelerate the Honda Fit to 90MPH (if it will go that fast)...
    I once owned a 2011 Honda Fit - I once got that baby up to 110 mph. Of course, that was without any passengers, nearly empty gas tank, and driving down hill with a tailwind.
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TactiCarl View Post
    A lighter projectile would yield more velocity and therefore more energy. Assuming you're looking to deliver more and not less energy to the bad guy, lighter is good...to a point. I wouldn't use any of the extreme light loads, just something toward the light side. I think a smaller grain projectile would be more at home in a shorter barrel in the interest of maintaining muzzle energy, however, you may have a pistol with an action that favors something heavier. Please bear in mind I don't know what exact caliber you have in mind with this post.

    To answer your question about barrel length and ballistics you might want to look at this website: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Calibers/Cartridges
    I agree I played pool for years. Old school thinking was use a heavy cue for breaking because it had more power. Over the years the realized that was wrong that a lighter cue could be swung faster and could deliver more energy to the cue ball. The proved scientifically that it was better after testing. Same rule for bullets lighter bullets do have more fps and energy.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathiasinthe314 View Post
    I once owned a 2011 Honda Fit - I once got that baby up to 110 mph. Of course, that was without any passengers, nearly empty gas tank, and driving down hill with a tailwind.
    I've seen a video of a Honda Fit run a 10 sec at the track.


  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post

    I have watched every liberty civil defense ballistic test on youtube,
    You surpassed Carl in Internet levels.


    BTW- you way overpaid for HST.
    50 round box - 9mm Luger +P Federal HST 124 grain HP hollow point LE ammo - P9HST3 | SGAmmo.com
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  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array Coconut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    You surpassed Carl in Internet levels.
    I was skeptical about it too, until I saw the test results.

    A year ago when I bought it, Federal was still very anal about not selling this Law Enforcement pack (50 round box) to civilians. In any case local gun stores only sell the civilian 20 round boxes at $1.25 per cartridge, must buy online for LE packs.
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cippee View Post
    I agree I played pool for years. Old school thinking was use a heavy cue for breaking because it had more power. Over the years the realized that was wrong that a lighter cue could be swung faster and could deliver more energy to the cue ball. The proved scientifically that it was better after testing. Same rule for bullets lighter bullets do have more fps and energy.
    I would not have believed that being that we are strong enough to move the heavy cue stick as well as the light cue stick. I'd think that a heavy stick would impact the ball harder.
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  13. #42
    Member Array DustyRivers's Avatar
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    here is an interesting video on copper hollow points to go with this discussion

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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Y'all must not hunt.

    a. hydrostatic shock does no damage at handgun velocities. It starts north of 2,000fps (above the velocities mentioned by the OP)
    b. gel is not varying density bone and muscle. It is a constant to base a scientific comparison. Varying densities tend to cause deflection and stop fragmentation.
    c. e=m v^2 overly emphasizes muzzle velocity and only accounts for energy at the muzzle. It is far more important to measure reliable penetration through the target, since this is where the fight is coming from.

    All of this velocity talk became popular in the '80's where JHP would not reliably expand at low velocities. Manufacturers were also trying to overcome the shortcomings of the 9mm. Modern JHP expand consistently at a wide variety of velocities. They are simply amazing little pieces of engineering that we take for granted.
    Sold copper defensive ammo is lawyer and enviro nazi marketing. Go ahead and hand over your money. I work too hard for mine.
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  15. #44
    Senior Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cippee View Post
    I agree I played pool for years. Old school thinking was use a heavy cue for breaking because it had more power. Over the years the realized that was wrong that a lighter cue could be swung faster and could deliver more energy to the cue ball. The proved scientifically that it was better after testing. Same rule for bullets lighter bullets do have more fps and energy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggo View Post
    I would not have believed that being that we are strong enough to move the heavy cue stick as well as the light cue stick. I'd think that a heavy stick would impact the ball harder.
    But you hold onto the cue when you break. If you threw both of them into a giant cube of ballistic gelatin which would travel farther?
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  16. #45
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    Apparently everyone here seems to be right to some degree. I found this article that talks about bullet power vs velocity. It says a bullet that moves too fast can have more power but if it tranfers the power to the target to fast it won't penetrate as far. I guess it depends on caliber and velocity. https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlike...et_is_12_m_v2/

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