Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper

Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper

This is a discussion on Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I dunno what I think here. I see all this new ammo out there with light weight bullets made of copper or some polymer stuff ...

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Thread: Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper

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    VIP Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Faster velocities with copper projectiles vs. Old School lead and copper

    I dunno what I think here. I see all this new ammo out there with light weight bullets made of copper or some polymer stuff that advertise 2000fps velocities.

    I am considering them for use in a new snub nose revolver I am purchasing in a couple weeks.

    I have read some of the thoughts here but none addressed my question.

    Does massive velocity with less mass do as much damage to tissue as slower heavier projectiles? Is this theory a better choice for short barrel pistols?

    How much does barrel length affect terminal ballistics?
    "Engage your brain before you engage your weapon" - James "Mad Dawg" Mattis

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    Member Array chestertnted's Avatar
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    I think we need to wait. Elmer Keith thought a big slug at 750 FPS worked, and it did. A 9 mm at 1100 FPS seems to work too. Will 1 round at 2000 FPS work.
    Time will tell

    TED
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    As a general rule lighter bullets tend to lose velocity faster resulting in shallower penetration than heavier slower bullets.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
    A 9MM MAY expand to .45 but a 45ACP will never shrink to 9MM.

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    I believe it has less to do with performance and more to do with profit margin.

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    VIP Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    I am assuming they [lighter grain bullets] also do not fair as well when striking heavy bone and cartilage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    I am assuming they [lighter grain bullets] also do not fair as well when striking heavy bone and cartilage.
    In that case the tend to fracture halting any further penetration.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
    A 9MM MAY expand to .45 but a 45ACP will never shrink to 9MM.

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    Ex Member Array TactiCarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    Does massive velocity with less mass do as much damage to tissue as slower heavier projectiles? Is this theory a better choice for short barrel pistols?

    How much does barrel length affect terminal ballistics?
    A lighter projectile would yield more velocity and therefore more energy. Assuming you're looking to deliver more and not less energy to the bad guy, lighter is good...to a point. I wouldn't use any of the extreme light loads, just something toward the light side. I think a smaller grain projectile would be more at home in a shorter barrel in the interest of maintaining muzzle energy, however, you may have a pistol with an action that favors something heavier. Please bear in mind I don't know what exact caliber you have in mind with this post.

    To answer your question about barrel length and ballistics you might want to look at this website: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Calibers/Cartridges

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    VIP Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TactiCarl View Post
    A lighter projectile would yield more velocity and therefore more energy. Assuming you're looking to deliver more and not less energy to the bad guy, lighter is good...to a point. I wouldn't use any of the extreme light loads, just something toward the light side. I think a smaller grain projectile would be more at home in a shorter barrel in the interest of maintaining muzzle energy, however, you may have a pistol with an action that favors something heavier. Please bear in mind I don't know what exact caliber you have in mind with this post.

    To answer your question about barrel length and ballistics you might want to look at this website: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Calibers/Cartridges

    I am purchasing the Charter Arms Pitbull in .40sw. I have lots and lots of .40sw ammo for my M&P's and wanted to continue that in a revolver. I had read a few articles that favored .40sw out of very short barrels when compared to several other popular calibers and even to a .357mag out of a snubby.

    The .40sw seems to not be a bad choice in any pistol, not that I knew that when I first purchased my M&P, but it has not left me regretting it or feeling under powered in any way [coming from .45acp previously].
    "Engage your brain before you engage your weapon" - James "Mad Dawg" Mattis

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    Quote Originally Posted by TactiCarl View Post
    .40 s&w sounds like a good choice even though I have no real experience with revolvers. I do have experience with .40 (usually 165 grain for my 4 inch barrel) and I think it's a fine cartridge .357mag would still deliver more energy over .40 s&w - about 20-25% according to ballistics101.com so I'm not sure exactly what your article said - maybe it was about something else besides energy.
    I believe the article was talking about muzzle velocities out of snub nose revolvers. The .40sw was right there with or better than some .357mag loads out of those really short barrels. I know muzzle velocities aren't the only thing necessary when considering defense rounds but .40sw has the velocity and a decent weight all combined. Certainly better than .38spl in my book.

    I guess I worry about proper expansion of bullets out of short barrels.
    "Engage your brain before you engage your weapon" - James "Mad Dawg" Mattis

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    Well, those copper bullets seem to do OK in the gel tests that I've seen. They kill deer like crazy out of my Ithaca deerslayer from my experience.

    If you can afford the copper stuff and it hits close enough to POA out of your handgun then I see no problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TactiCarl View Post
    Well since neither one of us can speak for an article which is not front of us let's put that aside for now to keep me less confused :)

    Your concern about expansion would be another tick in the direction of a smaller grain bullet. Generally, more velocity helps ensure expansion from what (little) I know.
    Sorry. Didn't mean to confuse. My real debate, with myself, was with the velocities vs. mass. I simply wanted to make sure my choice of revolver would be adequate using the .40sw ammo I already have on hand or with other copper jacketed lead choices. I didn't want to lose so much muzzle velocity that my hollow points wouldn't do their job.

    If the newer tech offerings work then I would be gaining several hundred FPS out of a short snubby to better ensure expansion, but I also didn't want to lose energy from lesser weight bullets to the point of ineffectiveness against an assailant.

    For the moment I plan to purchase some slightly lighter weight hollow point .40sw for the revolver. Maybe something in the 165 flavor. Maybe do some unofficial water jug tests with two different weights of defense ammo out of the Pitbull.
    "Engage your brain before you engage your weapon" - James "Mad Dawg" Mattis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doghandler View Post
    Well, those copper bullets seem to do OK in the gel tests that I've seen. They kill deer like crazy out of my Ithaca deerslayer from my experience.

    If you can afford the copper stuff and it hits close enough to POA out of your handgun then I see no problem.
    The copper stuff I have seen locally is more expensive but when bought solely for self defense I wouldn't "not" make the purchase due to cost. You get 20 rounds for about twice the cost of 50 target style rounds.

    However, Federal HST is the best bang for buck I believe. I get 50 round boxes for about $35.00.
    "Engage your brain before you engage your weapon" - James "Mad Dawg" Mattis

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    VIP Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    In Lucky Gunner testing from a short barrel pistol, Barnes Tac-XP 140 gr. 40 performed well:
    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

    The snub revolver will produce less velocity, decreasing likelihood of expansion.
    I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
    "Wouldn't want to or Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TactiCarl View Post

    You're saying there's an ammo (with the same grain) that will give you several hundred (at least 300?) fps more out of a 2" barrel? The all copper ones? I could see that out of a longer test barrel maybe but gaining that much out of a 2" barrel seems hard to believe.

    Ohhhh no. No where near the same grain. The projectiles I am talking about are very light, under 90 grains (Ruger ARX stuff). The Colt stuff, solid copper, is lighter but not as light as the ARX.

    Quote Originally Posted by TactiCarl View Post
    I would go with something like 165-155 grain HSTs.
    That is my plan for now.
    "Engage your brain before you engage your weapon" - James "Mad Dawg" Mattis

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    Quote Originally Posted by TactiCarl View Post
    A lighter projectile would yield more velocity and therefore more energy. Assuming you're looking to deliver more and not less energy to the bad guy, lighter is good...to a point. I wouldn't use any of the extreme light loads, just something toward the light side. I think a smaller grain projectile would be more at home in a shorter barrel in the interest of maintaining muzzle energy, however, you may have a pistol with an action that favors something heavier. Please bear in mind I don't know what exact caliber you have in mind with this post.

    To answer your question about barrel length and ballistics you might want to look at this website: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Calibers/Cartridges
    Reading the charts and articles selling the newest and hottest ammo would lead many people to this conclusion. But the truth is MSG answered the question in post #3. The formula for energy (e= 0.5 m v(squared) ) tells you the energy of the round at the muzzle. It does not tell you the work done at the target.

    Now, we are discussing performance out of a short barrel. A common flawed logic is to think the short barrel has lost lots of velocity, so try to get some of it back by using a lighter bullet. This is the opposite of how to handle the physics problem. You are not getting that energy back. Go with a heavy for caliber round. It will better maintain what little velocity the short barrel has yielded to the projectile.
    Psalm 144:1

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