9mm lethality testing at distance (Sub 2000) - Page 2

9mm lethality testing at distance (Sub 2000)

This is a discussion on 9mm lethality testing at distance (Sub 2000) within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Several/many years ago a kid here in Arkansas shot a .22 into the air and killed a guy a Very long ways off. It's been ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 44
Like Tree81Likes

Thread: 9mm lethality testing at distance (Sub 2000)

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array 1MoreFord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    AR
    Posts
    1,427
    Several/many years ago a kid here in Arkansas shot a .22 into the air and killed a guy a Very long ways off. It's been so long ago I don't remember the circumstances. Something in the back of my mind says it was a watch this moment yet I can't say that with full certainty. Never the less it was way beyond the distance anyone would think a .22 was effective. Don't underestimate bullets destructive abilities.
    viney266 likes this.
    Joe

  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    The BAD lands
    Posts
    12,414
    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreFord View Post
    Several/many years ago a kid here in Arkansas shot a .22 into the air and killed a guy a Very long ways off. It's been so long ago I don't remember the circumstances. Something in the back of my mind says it was a watch this moment yet I can't say that with full certainty. Never the less it was way beyond the distance anyone would think a .22 was effective. Don't underestimate bullets destructive abilities.
    A big deal when I was a kid was the mile and 1/2 warning on 22 boxes. It has to do with trajectory, angles and luck (or bad luck).
    viney266, Snub44 and AzQkr like this.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

    In a world of snowflakes, be a torch.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array viney266's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,264
    So, I wasn't the only one reading the tabs on those boxes as a kid? :)
    5lima30ret and Bad Bob like this.
    Proud NRA Benefactor member, My wife, daughter and son are all life members.
    Gun carry permits and the 2nd amendment only confirm what is a God given right to protect ones life and the lives of loved ones from evil.
    Speed is only a matter of money. How fast do you want to go?

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array RedSafety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Springfield, MO
    Posts
    1,792
    Quote Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
    I only trust a 9mm handgun or carbine for last resort bad-breath fighting distances. If I am shooting something at 400 to 500 yards, I want a 300 Winchester Magnum or better caliber rifle with a good bullet drop scope. A 300 Win-Mag still has over 1,500 foot/pounds of energy at 500 yards for a quick stop.
    You're either talking hunting, or SHTF 'peace loving' violent liberal mobs when you're talking those distances. At SD/HD distances, all the pistol service rounds have similar stopping and failure to stop rates, and ANY centerfire rifle round is better than a pistol or shotgun, with similar stop and especially failure to stop rates among all calibers.
    When seconds count, help is only 18+ minutes away!

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Oregon
    Posts
    14,832
    Quote Originally Posted by RedSafety View Post
    You're either talking hunting, or SHTF 'peace loving' violent liberal mobs when you're talking those distances. At SD/HD distances, all the pistol service rounds have similar stopping and failure to stop rates, and ANY centerfire rifle round is better than a pistol or shotgun, with similar stop and especially failure to stop rates among all calibers.

    Stuff happens and I like options.
    Snub44, G26Raven and SatCong like this.
    Second Amendment: The difference between politicians and rulers.
    US Navy - US Army, Retired
    NRA Benefactor Life Member

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array RedSafety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Springfield, MO
    Posts
    1,792
    yup, it does. Unless I'm out on the road, I don't have a shooting lane more than about 100 yards, if that. If I was a hunter, I'd be focusing on the game at that yardage, and then choose a rifle with SD/HD in mind after that. But everyone has their own choices to make. Everyone has a different set of objectives and paths to choose. Foe me, in the city, I don't have that kind of open lane. Even from the top of the 4 story building, there's not that long of a shooting lane open. And I doubt I have the skill to make that kind of shot at more than 100 yards, if that.
    When seconds count, help is only 18+ minutes away!

  8. #22
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    W
    Posts
    139
    My thoughts:
    * Do we have agreement that combat situation of war and law enforcement are different than self/home defense? Just because military and SWAT have it or do it, doesn't mean civilians will be in those same situations and have the same requirements for the tool selection.
    * Have we all read anecdotes of 5.56 not having the stopping/killing power in combat? Or that 7.62x39 is more effective? Or the caliber wars?
    * Isn't it all about shot placement + penetration?
    * Is the "one shot" still a myth?
    * How much more, if any, is 5.56 going to stop an attack versus 9mm? How much worse, if any, can 9mm out of a long barrel be for self/home defense, versus 5.56?
    * What are the SD/HD requirements?
    * What tools meet those SD/HD requirements?

    If we can't answers these questions, then thank God our area of the world isn't that terrible!

  9. #23
    Member Array FiteStopr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    The Buckeye State
    Posts
    355
    At 400 yards my .45 still makes a bigger hole! (Strokes grip of holstered 1911 and spits on own boot)
    Slow is smooth, smooth is Fast

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NE, KS
    Posts
    2,914
    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    My thoughts:
    * Do we have agreement that combat situation of war and law enforcement are different than self/home defense? Just because military and SWAT have it or do it, doesn't mean civilians will be in those same situations and have the same requirements for the tool selection.
    * Have we all read anecdotes of 5.56 not having the stopping/killing power in combat? Or that 7.62x39 is more effective? Or the caliber wars?
    * Isn't it all about shot placement + penetration?
    * Is the "one shot" still a myth?
    * How much more, if any, is 5.56 going to stop an attack versus 9mm? How much worse, if any, can 9mm out of a long barrel be for self/home defense, versus 5.56?
    * What are the SD/HD requirements?
    * What tools meet those SD/HD requirements?

    If we can't answers these questions, then thank God our area of the world isn't that terrible!
    The questions can be answered to some extent, just have to do some research. For instance, since you're into rhetorical questions;

    "Why would a civilian home defender want a less effective weapon than what LE and military has??" after all "Don't all have the same basic goal of stopping a threat?"

    "If SWAT guys do entry operations into houses, how much different is that "operational environment" from my house?"

    And a really good one; "Why did LE gradually move to .223/5.56 from sub-guns??, could that same rationale have an effect on HD weapon/ammo selection?"

    Here's one view:



    The service caliber handguns might be a wash, but pay attention to the delta between handgun and rifle/shotgun. You can pretty much substitute a 9mm carbine for the .357 Magnum data based on MVs.

    And there's more:

    Barriers and Structures
    The Bureauís research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment.Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.
    .223 Wounding Characteristics
    Ballisticians and Forensic professionals familiar with gunshot injuries generally agree that high velocity projectiles of the .223 genre produce wounds in soft tissue out of proportion to their calibers, i.e. bullet diameter. This phenomenon is primarily attributed to the synergistic effects of temporary stretch cavity (as opposed to the relatively lower velocity stretching which typifies most pistol rounds) and bullet fragmentation on living tissue.
    Regarding NATOís 62-grain FMC M-855 (SS109) .223 caliber round Dr. Fackler observed that the bullet produces a wound profile similar to the M-193ís, particularly where abdominal or thigh wounds were involved.
    The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for overpenetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested.

    In summary the .223 carbine is an extremely flexible and effective anti-personnel weapon with, in many cases, handling characteristics actually superior to many contemporary SMGs. It offers the advantages of reduced logistics, lower costs and reduced training time when compared to agencies employing multiple specialty weapons. The caliber in its current offering is far from perfect, but in spite of some shortcomings, I anticipate that in the future it will eventually replace pistol caliber SMGs in many police departments and law enforcement agencies.
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-effectiveness


    You're free to choose a 9mm carbine over a .223/5.56 for HD, but the "just as" type rationalizations really are BS.
    Last edited by Chuck R.; December 14th, 2018 at 08:59 AM.
    Bad Bob likes this.
    homo homini lupus est

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Southwest
    Posts
    7,898
    Chuck R., I've read and re-read Ellifritz's study many times and I do think it's excellent. But one question that he does not address in his study is the accuracy of long guns as compared to handguns. Although there are some people who can deploy a handgun with great accuracy (we have many here), I suspect the "average" person cannot. I suspect that the accuracy of shot placement with a long gun compared to a hand gun accounts for a certain percentage of the difference in "one shot stops" between handguns and long guns in Ellifritz's study. How significant that is can't be determined from his existing data.
    AzQkr, Chuck R., Bad Bob and 1 others like this.
    You are your own first responder.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NE, KS
    Posts
    2,914
    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    Chuck R., I've read and re-read Ellifritz's study many times and I do think it's excellent. But one question that he does not address in his study is the accuracy of long guns as compared to handguns. Although there are some people who can deploy a handgun with great accuracy (we have many here), I suspect the "average" person cannot. I suspect that the accuracy of shot placement with a long gun compared to a hand gun accounts for a certain percentage of the difference in "one shot stops" between handguns and long guns in Ellifritz's study. How significant that is can't be determined from his existing data.
    Agree 100%

    But again, there is I believe enough data in addition to the Ellifritz study to support that a high velocity projectile creates wounds that are "different" than low velocity rounds. In the vignette provided on the link I posted for instance:

    When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused b the .223 round. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds: ∑ Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries. ∑ The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.

    What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type of terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use.
    Like many of these type studies, there are flaws. One of my favorites is the delta between physiological and psychological stops, which is probably the toughest to differentiate unless the subject is DRT.

    I hate to use animal/hunting comparisons, but anybody that's killed big game with a rifle, pistol, muzzle-loader should have an idea of the differences in the wounds created. Pistols & muzzleloaders (also shotgun slugs) act similarly by punching a hole. A HV rifle however has what I call the "jello effect" where internal chit is turned into goo.

    Accuracy aspect, no doubt a long gun is superior. It's just that once I've chosen a long gun, I'd rather have it in a long gun caliber when it comes to SD.
    G26Raven likes this.
    homo homini lupus est

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Southwest
    Posts
    7,898
    Chuck R., and I agree with you. I hunt and every time I have taken an animal, have been astonished at the devastating effects of 7mm-08 and .308, so I understand the differences well. But I do think accuracy does come into play in this, too. Like someone said here a long time ago, I don't think there's much difference between "dead" and "more dead." Given a choice, I would rather go up against a bad guy with my Sig MPX rather than my Sig M11-A1 (both are 9mm).
    Chuck R., Cuda66 and Bad Bob like this.
    You are your own first responder.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    The BAD lands
    Posts
    12,414
    9mm lethality testing at distance (Sub 2000)-img_20180822_220048.jpg

    Make mine a 40.....
    Cuda66, Chuck R. and G-man* like this.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

    In a world of snowflakes, be a torch.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    17,991
    Name:  0EEA9F5C-A7D5-466B-9AF9-B0F62E0D6110.jpeg
Views: 70
Size:  26.1 KBIt all makes for interesting banter to kill the time, but there ainít no guarantee.

    Name:  A416C070-3787-467F-AF39-0D32197265E7.jpeg
Views: 66
Size:  25.4 KBName:  7BC953E7-A47E-460D-A5FD-BF7359765C99.jpeg
Views: 62
Size:  23.2 KB

    30-30 Winchester from a few feet; enter thru chest and out the back of the arm, one of many, many that I have seen over time, and the only one that I documented with pics.
    Wish I had a $10 bill for all the one shot stops and deaths I have seen caused from a .22 rifle.

    Id still want about anything over a 22 if I had a choice, but it just goes to show that things donít always make sense.

    I do confess, that such information can be ruled as anecdotal, yet, there it is.

    I think itís more important to match the bullet to the job, regardless of caliber, than caliber in and of itself.
    However, the bigger the caliber, the less critical the selection of bullet imo.
    LimaCharlie likes this.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.Ē
    -Jeff Cooper

    ď Looking around doesnít cost you anything; and itís a healthy habitĒ
    -Joe Foss

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Oregon
    Posts
    14,832
    Internet consensus is caliber doesn't matter for self defense. Internet consensus is caliber is critical for bear defense.
    forester58 and Bad Bob like this.
    Second Amendment: The difference between politicians and rulers.
    US Navy - US Army, Retired
    NRA Benefactor Life Member

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •