Why bullet size matters in officer-involved shootings - Page 2

Why bullet size matters in officer-involved shootings

This is a discussion on Why bullet size matters in officer-involved shootings within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to ...

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Thread: Why bullet size matters in officer-involved shootings

  1. #16
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    "I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome".

    I can and do! My daily carry are ALL .40 caliber & above. Thanks for posting this, Brownie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete63 View Post
    "I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome".

    I can and do! My daily carry are ALL .40 caliber & above. Thanks for posting this, Brownie.
    Agreed. Why should anyone be required to carry a caliber simply because its recoil is light enough to be handled by lesser shooters?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    I see the writing as a rehash of times past. Yes, for decades bigger bullets meant greater lethality, but time moves on. The author wrote:



    Note he states: “I believe” in the first sentence in the quoted section. Everyman is entitled to his beliefs. I prefer to follow scientific testing rather than educated formed personal beliefs. That is why the DOD/LE Joint Task Force wound ballistic testing is my guide. It clearly proves that the 9mm with fluid transfer ammo will outperform all other bullets except 45 ACP JHP with a velocity over 1000 FPS. That 45 spec will be eaqaul to the 9mm fluid transfer bullet.

    There is a new standard for wound ballistics forming and the DOD/LE report is on the cutting edge of its findings. Big bullets and jhp are rapidly becoming obsolete.
    Sir, that report looks like a well orchestrated fake, ruse, or advertising.

    I searched for the supposed classified version; nada. (Yes, I did this at work at the Pentagon, on the pertinent networks, because if it had verifiable conclusions I could use for courses I manage I wanted to incorporate the info.)

    The claim of anonymity is a huge red flag; when DoD approves a public release version there is a public release statement. Misspellings of things no LEO would err on are a clue too.... “Sherriff”, “Marshalls”? Marshalls is a department store. It’s not research I would trust. Some, or many, of the conclusions may be correct, but it appears the document was intended to manipulate readers toward a specific biased conclusion the author(s) intended. It smells mighty fishy.
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  5. #19
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    Same tired rehash of the same old tired argument.

    From the article:

    Fragmentation: This involves pieces of the bullet breaking up and secondary fragments, such as pieces of bone, which are impelled outward from the permanent cavity. Fragmentation of any significance “does not reliably occur in handgun wounds due to the relatively low velocities of handgun bullets.”
    They were REALLY steering the boat away from magnum revolvers. EVERYONE wanted a wonder nine...... Well, not everyone.
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  6. #20
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    Good article. However, a technical point that sticks in my craw (which comes from the original FBI paper, not this author):

    "A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball."

    This is talking about momentum, not energy. A bullet has much more energy than that absorbed by the shooter and gun, and much more than a baseball.
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    I think commonality of weapons, ammo, and mags in a department is a big deal. The idea of officers responding to an incident, with different guns in different calibers, using different mags, makes no sense to me.

    The ability to interchange mags and weapons is much, much more important than chasing fractional differences in ballistics.

    9mm is a standard caliber the world over for some very good reasons.
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  8. #22
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    The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that the sidearm and ammo that the FBI uses is the best choice for all LEO agencies......

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
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    Quote Originally Posted by seeker_two View Post
    The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that the sidearm and ammo that the FBI uses is the best choice for all LEO agencies......

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    Or for anyone else...
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    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    Sir, that report looks like a well orchestrated fake, ruse, or advertising.

    I searched for the supposed classified version; nada. (Yes, I did this at work at the Pentagon, on the pertinent networks, because if it had verifiable conclusions I could use for courses I manage I wanted to incorporate the info.)

    The claim of anonymity is a huge red flag; when DoD approves a public release version there is a public release statement. Misspellings of things no LEO would err on are a clue too.... “Sherriff”, “Marshalls”? Marshalls is a department store. It’s not research I would trust. Some, or many, of the conclusions may be correct, but it appears the document was intended to manipulate readers toward a specific biased conclusion the author(s) intended. It smells mighty fishy.
    Each of us must decide for ourselves what is best for us ourselves, and we must decide who we trust. Yes there are misspellings because those who wrote it are not writers. I have published five books, yet I make more typos here than most. The validity of information is not bas3 upon spelling. It is based upon evidence. Anyone can chose to distrust officialdom’s reports. Anyone can choose to belive advertisers self promoting claims. It is difficult to wade through all of the conflicting opinion and research.

    I have researched the ballistic performance of fluid transfer bullets for four years. Everything I found supported the findings of the DOD/lLE Joint Task Force report. None of it was advertising or the opinions of people who have never tested the ammo.

    There was time when men believed that motorized flying in the air was impossible. But a decade later they believed. It is true for most technologies. Today flying is a fact of life. In another decade the fluid transfer bullet will be recognized as the best self defense option. Progress takes time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Works for me, Dan !

    - testing was halted after a brief kinetic episode -

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusIV View Post
    Works for me, Dan !

    Sweet!


    I have one ordered.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    Sir, that report looks like a well orchestrated fake, ruse, or advertising.

    I searched for the supposed classified version; nada. (Yes, I did this at work at the Pentagon, on the pertinent networks, because if it had verifiable conclusions I could use for courses I manage I wanted to incorporate the info.)

    The claim of anonymity is a huge red flag; when DoD approves a public release version there is a public release statement. Misspellings of things no LEO would err on are a clue too.... “Sherriff”, “Marshalls”? Marshalls is a department store. It’s not research I would trust. Some, or many, of the conclusions may be correct, but it appears the document was intended to manipulate readers toward a specific biased conclusion the author(s) intended. It smells mighty fishy.
    It smells a lot like the old Strasbourg goat test.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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    End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."




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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I think commonality of weapons, ammo, and mags in a department is a big deal. The idea of officers responding to an incident, with different guns in different calibers, using different mags, makes no sense to me.

    The ability to interchange mags and weapons is much, much more important than chasing fractional differences in ballistics.

    9mm is a standard caliber the world over for some very good reasons.
    Commonality only matters for the military. There has not been a case where it mattered in LE, not even the North Hollywood bank robbery. If you used up all your ammo and did not solve anything, I am not giving you mine.

    9mm.... Meh...
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    Each of us must decide for ourselves what is best for us ourselves, and we must decide who we trust. Yes there are misspellings because those who wrote it are not writers. I have published five books, yet I make more typos here than most. The validity of information is not bas3 upon spelling. It is based upon evidence. Anyone can chose to distrust officialdom’s reports. Anyone can choose to belive advertisers self promoting claims. It is difficult to wade through all of the conflicting opinion and research.

    I have researched the ballistic performance of fluid transfer bullets for four years. Everything I found supported the findings of the DOD/lLE Joint Task Force report. None of it was advertising or the opinions of people who have never tested the ammo.

    There was time when men believed that motorized flying in the air was impossible. But a decade later they believed. It is true for most technologies. Today flying is a fact of life. In another decade the fluid transfer bullet will be recognized as the best self defense option. Progress takes time.

    I have not seen one actual ballistics industry expert agree that the so called dod report was legitimate or anything other than bullet manufacturer propoganda. As a matter of fact it has been torn apart as fake What am I missing?
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