Winchester 9mm 147gr Defender/ Train & Defend in Clear Ballistics Gel.

Winchester 9mm 147gr Defender/ Train & Defend in Clear Ballistics Gel.

This is a discussion on Winchester 9mm 147gr Defender/ Train & Defend in Clear Ballistics Gel. within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr MK9. Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches. Ammunition: Winchester 147gr Defender Train & Defender. Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel. Distance: ...

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Thread: Winchester 9mm 147gr Defender/ Train & Defend in Clear Ballistics Gel.

  1. #1
    Member Array 5pins's Avatar
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    Winchester 9mm 147gr Defender/ Train & Defend in Clear Ballistics Gel.



    Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr MK9.
    Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
    Ammunition: Winchester 147gr Defender Train & Defender.
    Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
    Distance: 10 feet.
    Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
    Five shot velocity average: 906, 846 fps Defender / 909, 867 fps Train & Defend.
    Gel Temperature 72 degrees.

    About two mounts ago Shooting the Bull announced the winner of the 9mm ammo quest and picked the Winchester 147gr Train and Defend. Shortly afterword I was in a Cabala’s and noticed they had both the Train and Defend as well as their 147gr Defender. At the store, I couldn’t remember which of the two he picked so I bought a box of each. Looking at the box’s the two looked identical aside from the difference in packing. The Defender did list a velocity of 1000fps as apposed to the Train and Defend at 950fps.

    Examining the rounds side by side they look almost identical with maybe a small difference in the bullet when looking down into the hollowpoint.



    Defender on the left and Train and Defend on the right.



    Point of impact was very similar to each other also.


    Defender at 10 yards from the Sig P229


    Train and Defend at 10 yards from the Sig P229

    Starting with the Defender, I got an average five velocity of 906fps with the P229 with a high of 933 and a low of 894fps. From the MK9 the average velocity was 846fps with a high of 858 and a low of 838fps.

    With the Train and Defend the P229 the five-shot average was 909fps with low of 925 and a low of 873fps. From the MK9 the average five-shot velocity was 867fps with a high of 894 and a low of 836fps.

    This is interesting because the Defender round is supposed to have a higher velocity than the Train and Defend by 50fps but came in lower from both the P229 and the Mk9. The Train and Defend had an average velocity 3fps higher in the P229 and 21fps higher from the MK9. Nether made the velocity calmed by Winchester.

    Shooting the first round of the Defender into the bare gel from the P229 the velocity was 911fps and penetrated to 19.5 inches. The recovered weight was 147.1 grains and it expanded to .54 inches. The second round hit the gel block at a velocity of 932fps and also penetrated to 19.5 inches. Recovered weight was 146.3 grains and it expanded to .53 inches.



    Through the heavy clothing covered gel, I didn’t get any velocity readings. The first round penetrated to 20.25 inches and expanded to .41 inches and had a recovered weight of 146.6 grains. The second round penetrated to 19.75 inches and weighed 146.6. When measured at the lead core of the bullet expansion was .49 inches. If measured at the largest point of the jacket “talons” it measured .63 inches.



    Only one shot was taken from the Mk9 into the bare gel. It penetrated to 18.5 inches and expanded to .50 inches at the lead core and .68 when measured to the talons. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and no velocity was recorded.



    With the Train and Defend the first round from the P229, into the bare gel, had a velocity of 930fps and penetrated to 20.5 inches with an expansion of .56 inches. The recovered weight was 146.7 grains. The second round also penetrated to 20.5 inches and had a recovered weight of 146.8 grains. The expansion was .55 inches and velocity was 925fps.



    Shooting the P229 through the heavy clothing the first round’s velocity was 937fps and it expanded to .53 inches. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and penetration was 20.5 inches. Round two had a velocity of 918fps and penetrated to 21 inches. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and expansion was .54 inches.



    The one round through the MK9, into the bare gel, had a velocity of 877fps and expanded to .41 inches when measured at the core, and .63 inches at the jacket. Penetration was 17 inches and recovered weight was 139.4 grains.


  2. #2
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    Array bmcgilvray's Avatar
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    Wow! Good post on my favorite bullet weight in 9mm.

    I still have ol' Winchester Black Talon 147 grain 9mm for the rare occasions I have a 9mm on hand for serious social purposes.
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  3. #3
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    Great post, thank you. I would guess that either round will do the job if needed. I generally shoot 115gr some kind of defense ammo. Right now I have 115gr HP +P+. I' bought the ammo on a whim and it shoots well out of a Glock and a M&P 9. I believe the projectile is going about 1300 fps. I feels like a 357 mag going off.

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    Member Array entertainment72's Avatar
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    thanks for the testing

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    Thanks, I prefer the 147 grain bullets so this is useful to me.
    "...as politics in Washington and elsewhere grows increasingly un-moored from reality, humanist wisdom provides us with one final consolation: There is no greater lesson from the past than the intractability of human folly." Heather Mac Donald

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    Member Array buckwheatpaul's Avatar
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    Very impressive! Thanks for the post and the information!

  8. #7
    Member Array JeffreyR's Avatar
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    How does the 147 gr. Defender (20 rnd. box)

    compare to the economical and readily available

    Winchester white box 147 gr jhp (50 rnd. box)

    They are both priced about the same with the wwb being a tad cheaper but greater quantity.

    I carry the WWB 147 gr. JHP in my SR9.

  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array Scouse's Avatar
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    I have Federal HST 147g hollow points. So that should work if ever required in self-defence situation!

    Expensive, but what is your life worth.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array WebleyHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffreyR View Post
    How does the 147 gr. Defender (20 rnd. box) compare to the economical and readily available Winchester white box 147 gr jhp (50 rnd. box)?
    Ask and you shall receive...

    https://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...stics-gel.html
    seeker_two likes this.
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  11. #10
    Member Array JeffreyR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    I already know how white box preforms. That's why I use it.

    What I'm asking is, What are the benefits, if any, of Defender 147 gr. ammo over WWb 147 gr. jhp ammo.

  12. #11
    Member Array seeker_two's Avatar
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    Defend is my 9mm carry round in both my LCR and CW9. No reliability issues in either.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

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