When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm? - Page 11

When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?

This is a discussion on When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Actually, my 10mm defense load has changed. For year and years and years, I've been using the 175 gr Win Silvertip. In my testing, that ...

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  1. #151
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    Actually, my 10mm defense load has changed. For year and years and years, I've been using the 175 gr Win Silvertip. In my testing, that bullet held together better than most at 10mm velocities. More recently, I've switched to the Underwood loading of the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense 115 gr bullet. I'm a believer in velocity but most 40 cal bullets don't hold up well at full-tilt loading of the 10mm. No such issues with the solid copper bullet and the accuracy is great, around 1" @ 20 yds. Since these little guys are launching at around 1700 fps from my G20 with a 4.6" barrel and nearly 1600 fps from my G29, I'm guessing that these may be the most reliable quick-stopper round available in 10mm. They're also noted for fairly deep penetration, Underwood says 19" in ballistic gel so should even work fine on 4-legged threats.

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  2. #152
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    My first carry gun was a G23 Gen4, then added a P229 Legion .40. I settled on the HST 165gr which proved to most consistently shoot POA. If I recall correctly, the velocity of the 165 HST gave it a very slight edge in energy over the 180gr HST. The recoil of the 165gr was very manageable, especially out of the heavier P229. I only recently switched to 9mm to get the same capacity out of smaller packages, although in my state we're limited to 10 rounds. I wouldn't hesitate to carry .40 again, especially for a hiking/woods carry pistol.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by CavemanBob View Post
    Actually, my 10mm defense load has changed. For year and years and years, I've been using the 175 gr Win Silvertip. In my testing, that bullet held together better than most at 10mm velocities. More recently, I've switched to the Underwood loading of the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense 115 gr bullet. I'm a believer in velocity but most 40 cal bullets don't hold up well at full-tilt loading of the 10mm. No such issues with the solid copper bullet and the accuracy is great, around 1" @ 20 yds. Since these little guys are launching at around 1700 fps from my G20 with a 4.6" barrel and nearly 1600 fps from my G29, I'm guessing that these may be the most reliable quick-stopper round available in 10mm. They're also noted for fairly deep penetration, Underwood says 19" in ballistic gel so should even work fine on 4-legged threats.

    (I've donned the Nomex)
    And that load puts out 738 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle!
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  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockymonster View Post
    And that load puts out 738 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle!
    Yup, that's pretty stout! It's not really noticeable from the recoil, but I'm always the wrong person to ask about how something recoils.
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  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by CavemanBob View Post
    Yup, that's pretty stout! It's not really noticeable from the recoil, but I'm always the wrong person to ask about how something recoils.
    Ok, but in your opinion, how does 10mm recoil compare to a stout 45ACP LOAD?
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  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockymonster View Post
    Ok, but in your opinion, how does 10mm recoil compare to a stout 45ACP LOAD?
    Neither one has much recoil, a bit more than a 9mm. I really couldn't say how the 45 Auto compares to the 10mm unless I were to shoot them side-by-side. I could tell ya it doesn't feel like full-house 357 in my 340PD or a 500 S&W. My wife thinks both 10mm and 45 ACP are ***** cats too, but her favorite between them is 45 because she can shoot it better due to the grip fitting her hands better. I could also probably notice the difference more if I had a G21 to compare to the G20, but I don't. My 45s are 1911s and a Springfield XDe.
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    I have shot a Glock G20 with an Underwood 180 grain and a Glock G21 with a Winchester 230 grain PDX1 at the same time in each hand. It was hard to tell the difference in felt recoil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CavemanBob View Post
    Neither one has much recoil, a bit more than a 9mm. I really couldn't say how the 45 Auto compares to the 10mm unless I were to shoot them side-by-side. I could tell ya it doesn't feel like full-house 357 in my 340PD or a 500 S&W. My wife thinks both 10mm and 45 ACP are ***** cats too, but her favorite between them is 45 because she can shoot it better due to the grip fitting her hands better. I could also probably notice the difference more if I had a G21 to compare to the G20, but I don't. My 45s are 1911s and a Springfield XDe.
    I like your wife’s taste!

    From what I’ve read and seen on YouTube, the consensus is that there is not much difference in recoil with comparable weight guns. I have a 1911 and a Springfield XD Compact 45 (4” barrel, short grip and no longer made), with a Springfield XDM OSP 10mm on order. Anxious to compare them!
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  10. #159
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    I would never choose to carry a .40 over a 9mm given equal ammunition standards.
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  11. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    The .40 expanded to a greater diameter. And under 2000 fps velocity is only useful in generating expansion and penetration. Hydrostatic shock is not a factor in wounding.
    Ya left out the cliche "doctors can't tell a difference" which is an anecdotal generalization.
    Most likely these cliches that are repeatedly posted on gun forums as fact are based on common ammo, in mainstream calibers including FMJ.
    Do doctors spend time on discerning and documenting differences in wounds or focus on saving the patient? I'm guessing the second.

    2,000 fps threshold, at that velocity (magically) damage greater than the expanded diameter of the bullet, below that ex: 1,850 fps - nothing? I think not.
    Perhaps at common pistol velocities 850-1,100 fps hydrostatic shock is not a factor, so doctors would not likely see that effect in the majority of handgun wounds.
    I think some effect on tissue might be seen below 2,000 fps, (fps where it begins unknown) gradually increasing with velocity. (Hypothesis)

    To test this hypothesis I shot a deer with a 155 gr. XTP 10mm which expands to about .65
    Unlike the "doctors who can't tell a difference" I took pics. with measures of reference, documentation not anecdotal.
    The bullet made a 1 1/4'' exit hole leaving the entry side shoulder, and yes I have a measuring tape in pic documenting the wound.
    A bit less graphic is the the hole that bullet made exiting the heart, obviously larger than the quarter (.95) used for reference.
    When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?-delta-deer-pic1.jpg

    Name:  Delta Deer pic2.jpg
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    That ^ hole larger than a quarter through dense tissue is after the bullet had already penetrated shoulder/leg, making an even larger hole.
    What effect allowed a bullet that expands to .65 to make significantly larger permanent holes in tissue? Bullet velocity was below the magic 2,000 fps.

    Maybe a velocity over 1,300 fps? Maybe over 600# KE? Also obtained with 357 Mag and 357 Sig which have very good street results, so I've read.
    Regardless the 2,000 fps generalization, may not be correct; just like the one about 10mm overpenetrates.
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  12. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
    Ya left out the cliche "doctors can't tell a difference" which is an anecdotal generalization.
    Most likely these cliches that are repeatedly posted on gun forums as fact are based on common ammo, in mainstream calibers including FMJ.
    Do doctors spend time on discerning and documenting differences in wounds or focus on saving the patient? I'm guessing the second.

    2,000 fps threshold, at that velocity (magically) damage greater than the expanded diameter of the bullet, below that ex: 1,850 fps - nothing? I think not.
    Perhaps at common pistol velocities 850-1,100 fps hydrostatic shock is not a factor, so doctors would not likely see that effect in the majority of handgun wounds.
    I think some effect on tissue might be seen below 2,000 fps, (fps where it begins unknown) gradually increasing with velocity. (Hypothesis)

    To test this hypothesis I shot a deer with a 155 gr. XTP 10mm which expands to about .65
    Unlike the "doctors who can't tell a difference" I took pics. with measures of reference, documentation not anecdotal.
    The bullet made a 1 1/4'' exit hole leaving the entry side shoulder, and yes I have a measuring tape in pic documenting the wound.
    A bit less graphic is the the hole that bullet made exiting the heart, obviously larger than the quarter (.95) used for reference.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Delta Deer pic1.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	163.5 KB 
ID:	304028

    Name:  Delta Deer pic2.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  115.7 KB

    That ^ hole larger than a quarter through dense tissue is after the bullet had already penetrated shoulder/leg, making an even larger hole.
    What effect allowed a bullet that expands to .65 to make significantly larger permanent holes in tissue? Bullet velocity was below the magic 2,000 fps.

    Maybe a velocity over 1,300 fps? Maybe over 600# KE? Also obtained with 357 Mag and 357 Sig which have very good street results, so I've read.
    Regardless the 2,000 fps generalization, may not be correct; just like the one about 10mm overpenetrates.
    I've posted this before, there's been at least one study that look at "hydro-static shock" that set the parameters at 500 ft pounds and 12" of penetration.

    Was doing some research as to the "why" the .357MAG with 125grn has a favorable reputation as a "stopper". This sort of flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that "all service calibers perform basically the same with modern defensive ammo" mantra. There may be some physiological "stuff" to it.

    Energy Transfer Required for Remote Neural Effects Our own research (Courtney and Courtney) supports the conclusion that handgun levels of energy transfer can produce pressure waves leading to incapacitation and injury.[29][30][26][31][32] The work of Suneson et al. also suggests that remote neural effects can occur with levels of energy transfer possible with handguns (roughly 500 ftlbs/700 joules).
    Even though Wang et al. document remote neural damage for low levels of energy transfer, these levels of neural damage are probably too small to contribute to rapid incapacitation. Courtney and Courtney suggest that remote neural effects only begin to make significant contributions to rapid incapacitation for ballistic pressure wave levels above 500 PSI (corresponds to transferring roughly 300 ft-lbs in 12 inches of penetration) and become easily observable above 1000 PSI (corresponds to transferring roughly 600 ft-lbs in 1 foot of penetration).[29] Incapacitating effects in this range of energy transfer are consistent with observations of remote spinal injuries,[15] observations of suppressed EEGs and breathing interruptions in pigs,[27][33] and with observations of incapacitating effects of ballistic pressure waves without a wound channel.[34]
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf
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  13. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
    Ya left out the cliche "doctors can't tell a difference" which is an anecdotal generalization.
    Most likely these cliches that are repeatedly posted on gun forums as fact are based on common ammo, in mainstream calibers including FMJ.
    Do doctors spend time on discerning and documenting differences in wounds or focus on saving the patient? I'm guessing the second.

    2,000 fps threshold, at that velocity (magically) damage greater than the expanded diameter of the bullet, below that ex: 1,850 fps - nothing? I think not.
    Perhaps at common pistol velocities 850-1,100 fps hydrostatic shock is not a factor, so doctors would not likely see that effect in the majority of handgun wounds.
    I think some effect on tissue might be seen below 2,000 fps, (fps where it begins unknown) gradually increasing with velocity. (Hypothesis)

    To test this hypothesis I shot a deer with a 155 gr. XTP 10mm which expands to about .65
    Unlike the "doctors who can't tell a difference" I took pics. with measures of reference, documentation not anecdotal.
    The bullet made a 1 1/4'' exit hole leaving the entry side shoulder, and yes I have a measuring tape in pic documenting the wound.
    A bit less graphic is the the hole that bullet made exiting the heart, obviously larger than the quarter (.95) used for reference.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Delta Deer pic1.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	163.5 KB 
ID:	304028

    Name:  Delta Deer pic2.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  115.7 KB

    That ^ hole larger than a quarter through dense tissue is after the bullet had already penetrated shoulder/leg, making an even larger hole.
    What effect allowed a bullet that expands to .65 to make significantly larger permanent holes in tissue? Bullet velocity was below the magic 2,000 fps.

    Maybe a velocity over 1,300 fps? Maybe over 600# KE? Also obtained with 357 Mag and 357 Sig which have very good street results, so I've read.
    Regardless the 2,000 fps generalization, may not be correct; just like the one about 10mm overpenetrates.
    You don’t need all that velocity to damage tissue, and I agree, that below 2000 fps you are not going to get the damage that a rifle will do.

    Heres a sampling of pics of deer taken with a 44 spl with hard cast bullets (LSWC) ,45 Auto with lead bullets ( Round Nose), and a 40 S&W with a 180 weight XTP.

    All were hit right, all exhibited major internal damage and bone breakage, and, all were down with the first shot.

    Only one bullet broke the 1000 FPS barrier, which was the 40 S&W with the 180 load at 1100 fps
    I do not agree with the notion that velocity is that much of a factor within itself in handgun bullets ability to create damage or effect a quick result, because with literally hundreds of game animals shot with various calibers over the last 40 years, I just have not observed any proof in this.

    When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?-8f740e1e-06d3-4d40-bcfe-fe9484342073.jpeg
    Dead coyote. 357 magnum handload. 125 weight at 1400 fps from 15 yards

    When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?-d5e0768c-5836-4bb0-919b-1e448de5a564.jpeg
    44spl load from M29 at about 21 yards. 250 Keith at 1000 fps

    Name:  CF098BE9-C706-40C7-9F8A-6C9FE1C1BE23.jpeg
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    45 Auto. 230 weight Lead RN. 850 FPS at 13 yards.

    When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?-b770d1af-5cfd-428d-96c3-beac3b2d0c06.jpeg

    G22 40 S&W 180 weight Double Tap ammo 1100 FPS XTP. Bullet can be seen under hide. 10-12 yard shot. This next pics shows the direction of travel when hit as he lay after the shot from the tree stand view.When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?-80beadec-1f04-4da1-94a3-432bab4ac96d.jpeg

    I just do not believe in the idea that handgun velocities generate enough energy to make a difference with either tissue damage or shock value.

    Velocity vs momentum; both are killers. One just gives you a little better range and a little more superficial tissue damage up closer.
    The other much easier on the ears, and will reliably put a hole thru something.

    But THIS; is what real damage looks like.

    270 w/130 weight handload from 90 yards. 3026 FPS for 3 shots on Chrony.
    When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?-a43def7d-7821-4745-af5c-9a8964955102.jpeg
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    You deerslayers do realize these results prove nothing without the deer wearing three layers of denim and a heavyweight hoody.
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  15. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    You deerslayers do realize these results prove nothing without the deer wearing three layers of denim and a heavyweight hoody.
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  16. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    You deerslayers do realize these results prove nothing without the deer wearing three layers of denim and a heavyweight hoody.
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