When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm? - Page 13

When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?

This is a discussion on When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 1942bull US Military and Federal Law Enforcement have gone to 9MM. I went from 45 to 9mm in 1989. So I guess ...

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Thread: When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?

  1. #181
    Member Array tnsoldier4fun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    US Military and Federal Law Enforcement have gone to 9MM. I went from 45 to 9mm in 1989. So I guess you know where I stand. But you do nee the right SD ammo if you do it.
    Understand, I have nothing against any of the calibers mentioned. In fact, I own numerous examples in each caliber and regularly stake my life on them. Having said that, the US military went to the 9mm as the quid pro quo of NATO adopting 5.56x45mm. The Feds have gone back to 9mm for several reasons, including cost of ammo, less wear & tear on pistols and it's easier for all the agents to qual with. Most of law-enforcement will eventually follow them back, for the same reasons, I'm sure. In the end, the old saw about "I'd rather be missed with a .500 Magnum than hit with a .22" still rules.
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  2. #182
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    When to carry a .40 over a 9mm? My answer to that might be during the next panic run on guns and ammo which is sure to come. I was always told that 9mm is the cheapest, most plentiful ammo out there and if you are a prepper all of your handguns should be in 9mm as this is the ammo you are most likely to come across during a SHTF moment.

    I quickly learned the fallacy of that argument after the first run on guns panic buying in 2008 after Obama was reelected and then even worse in 2013 after the Sandy Hook shooting when everyone feared that some serious gun control was going to be enacted. What was the only handgun ammo available in any decent quantities in my area during these times? You guessed it, the .40S&W. 9mm and .22LR simply could not be found anywhere and even .38spl and .357Mag were harder to come by then .40S&W was.

    This taught me that I needed to add at least one .40S&W pistol to my portfolio although I admit I have yet to do so as I've been buying and carrying revolvers more these days. However, I'm starting to see some awfully good prices on some very nice pistols chambered in .40S&W around here so I may be getting one sooner rather than later.

  3. #183
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnsoldier4fun View Post
    In the end, the old saw about "I'd rather be missed with a .500 Magnum than hit with a .22" still rules.
    But what if they don't miss with the 500?
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  5. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    But what if they don't miss with the 500?
    But what is an average shooters going to be more accurate with: the. 22 or the 500? Remember the 22 accounts for more gun deaths worldwide than any other caliber. I am not selling 22 for SD, but only pointing out it is a lethal round. All you have to do it accurately shoot it.
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  6. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    But what if they don't miss with the 500?
    You should have used the sarcasm smiley, Bob.
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  7. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    But what is an average shooters going to be more accurate with: the. 22 or the 500? Remember the 22 accounts for more gun deaths worldwide than any other caliber. I am not selling 22 for SD, but only pointing out it is a lethal round. All you have to do it accurately shoot it.
    The bit about .22 killing more is BS.

    I tried substantiating a couple years ago and there's just no data on it. It traces back to a supposition in a DOJ paper in the 80s but there's not a trace of data to back it up.

    The more you know...

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  8. #187
    Senior Member Array wondering's Avatar
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    I'm going to wade into this late and with my flame-proof pants on...I'm not a ballistics expert, but I consider delivered energy as basically momentum which is mass x velocity and I feel 9mm, .40, and .45 are similar in this delivered energy I know you can pull up specific loads that are vastly different but generally speaking they are close (at least close enough for me to feel comfortable with a 9mm's effectiveness compared to a .45 from the perspective of energy delivered on target). However I consider barrier penetration as well when choosing a carry round. A smaller diameter round traveling at a faster speed is going to penetrate a barrier better than larger diameter at a slower speed and this has been shown in real world applications like shooting through a door or into a vehicle. I think 9mm is going to give me a better chance at causing damage to someone inside a vehicle or on the other side of a door or any other barrier I may typically encounter.

    As far as 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 I prefer to go with either 9mm or .45 for a few reasons. To me, personally the recoil is more manageable for both (.40 has that more pronounced muzzle flip where .45 is more of a manageable "push" type recoil). For me the ballistic gains from a .40 vs. a 9mm just don't offset the 9mm's higher round count, easier recoil, high barrier penetration, lower cost , and higher availability. For a .40 caliber option...I chose to go further up the spectrum and buy a 10mm for a woods gun for 4-legged bad guys and with the added benefit of it's lower range being able to fulfill anything a .40 could do for street carry (and the 10mm is fun to reload for). I'f I'm going to give up round count to go to a .40 caliber round, I'm going to add the power and versatility of the 10mm to do so.

    So again for me personally I usually carry a 9mm for the streets because the pistol size is comfortable, the round counts are high, the recoil is conducive to follow up shots, the ammo is cheaper and available and the barrier penetration is better.

    I have a .45 stowed away mostly for home defense as it is quieter and less likely to penetrate walls as far as a 9mm would (minuscule differences I know, but I'll take any advantage I can get). I do carry my .45 now and then as the mood hits me, but I've found it very hard to beat having 10+1 rounds of 9mm in the P365 package versus the same round count in my G30.

    I carry my 10mm for woods carry or on very cold days when several layers of clothing may need to be defeated on a bad guy. Plus I have the added benefit that my G29 uses the same holsters as my G30.

    Is a .40 more powerful than a 9mm? Yes, but that doesn't outweigh the advantages of a 9mm in my mind. Having said all that I have been looking at a G27 to have for ammo crisis times because around my neck of the woods .40 was the only thing on the shelf and that G27 would allow me to shoot .40, 9mm, or .357 Sig with some minor changes...all while fitting in my G26 holsters.

    And as always it all boils down to carrying what you are most effective with and can have the best shot placement with. For me I feel I can be as effective with a 9mm as I could with a .40 or .45 and would have faster follow up shots, more rounds available, and would have more options to engage someone on the other side of a barrier. To each their own though.
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  9. #188
    Senior Member Array wondering's Avatar
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    Wow...I didn't realize how long my post was....apologies in advance
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  10. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by wondering View Post
    I'm going to wade into this late and with my flame-proof pants on...I'm not a ballistics expert, but I consider delivered energy as basically momentum which is mass x velocity and I feel 9mm, .40, and .45 are similar in this delivered energy I know you can pull up specific loads that are vastly different but generally speaking they are close (at least close enough for me to feel comfortable with a 9mm's effectiveness compared to a .45 from the perspective of energy delivered on target). However I consider barrier penetration as well when choosing a carry round. A smaller diameter round traveling at a faster speed is going to penetrate a barrier better than larger diameter at a slower speed and this has been shown in real world applications like shooting through a door or into a vehicle. I think 9mm is going to give me a better chance at causing damage to someone inside a vehicle or on the other side of a door or any other barrier I may typically encounter.

    As far as 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 I prefer to go with either 9mm or .45 for a few reasons. To me, personally the recoil is more manageable for both (.40 has that more pronounced muzzle flip where .45 is more of a manageable "push" type recoil). For me the ballistic gains from a .40 vs. a 9mm just don't offset the 9mm's higher round count, easier recoil, high barrier penetration, lower cost , and higher availability. For a .40 caliber option...I chose to go further up the spectrum and buy a 10mm for a woods gun for 4-legged bad guys and with the added benefit of it's lower range being able to fulfill anything a .40 could do for street carry (and the 10mm is fun to reload for). I'f I'm going to give up round count to go to a .40 caliber round, I'm going to add the power and versatility of the 10mm to do so.

    So again for me personally I usually carry a 9mm for the streets because the pistol size is comfortable, the round counts are high, the recoil is conducive to follow up shots, the ammo is cheaper and available and the barrier penetration is better.

    I have a .45 stowed away mostly for home defense as it is quieter and less likely to penetrate walls as far as a 9mm would (minuscule differences I know, but I'll take any advantage I can get). I do carry my .45 now and then as the mood hits me, but I've found it very hard to beat having 10+1 rounds of 9mm in the P365 package versus the same round count in my G30.

    I carry my 10mm for woods carry or on very cold days when several layers of clothing may need to be defeated on a bad guy. Plus I have the added benefit that my G29 uses the same holsters as my G30.

    Is a .40 more powerful than a 9mm? Yes, but that doesn't outweigh the advantages of a 9mm in my mind. Having said all that I have been looking at a G27 to have for ammo crisis times because around my neck of the woods .40 was the only thing on the shelf and that G27 would allow me to shoot .40, 9mm, or .357 Sig with some minor changes...all while fitting in my G26 holsters.

    And as always it all boils down to carrying what you are most effective with and can have the best shot placement with. For me I feel I can be as effective with a 9mm as I could with a .40 or .45 and would have faster follow up shots, more rounds available, and would have more options to engage someone on the other side of a barrier. To each their own though.
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  11. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    The bit about .22 killing more is BS.

    I tried substantiating a couple years ago and there's just no data on it. It traces back to a supposition in a DOJ paper in the 80s but there's not a trace of data to back it up.

    The more you know...

    Guns, Guns, & More Gosh Darn Guns: But the .22 Has Killed.....


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    The article is old and it does not support your argument. It simply says that 22 is not good SD caliber. Now let's look at the data from the near decade old study done by Greg Ellifritz. It reports on many caliber ballistic lethality. Some people have used it to claim 22 is a good SD round. Ellifritz has disagreed with their conclusions. It is clear from his data that the 22 kills more people.

    Now to your reference. I read the blog article. If you try to see the DOJ study referred to by a link, there s no data. SO there is no proof. of the writers position. Finally, it was a DOJ report, which means it would be limited to the US. Ellifritz study was more expansive. Ellifritsz is a notable trainer, researcher, and writer. I will stick with him over the blog writer and even the DOJ.

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  12. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    The article is old and it does not support your argument. It simply says that 22 is not good SD caliber. Now let's look at the data from the near decade old study done by Greg Ellifritz. It reports on many caliber ballistic lethality. Some people have used it to claim 22 is a good SD round. Ellifritz has disagreed with their conclusions. It is clear from his data that the 22 kills more people.

    Now to your reference. I read the blog article. If you try to see the DOJ study referred to by a link, there s no data. SO there is no proof. of the writers position. Finally, it was a DOJ report, which means it would be limited to the US. Ellifritz study was more expansive. Ellifritsz is a notable trainer, researcher, and writer. I will stick with him over the blog writer and even the DOJ.

    As you wrote: "The more you know..."
    I'm friends with Greg and reference his work in the article.

    I'll try and find a new link to the DOJ study.

    There is no data supporting that the .22 kills more people beyond Ellifritz's article.


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  13. #192
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    Just an observation. whatever percentage of the total shootings that were performed by criminals, possibly the most telling statistic for criminal activity relating to this would simply be availability.

    In other words, what weapon was available for use? I've never heard about criminals shopping for guns and selecting the most effective caliber or make/model. It is usually just determined by what they can get their hands on. I don't know that I've ever seen any kind of data with that being considered as a factor.

    I learned that any gun/caliber can kill...given correct shot placement. From medical people, (principally Mrs OldChap and some of her ER coworkers), I learned that bullets that attract the most foreign material and carry it into the wound used to cause the most fatal infections. Given the huge advances in anti-bacterial products, that is not true so much any more.

    One other thing. As we all know, there have been great leaps in bullet technology for most center fire calibers spanning the last 100 years. Not so the lowly 22. Some "advanced" 22 loadings are still trailing even the simplest technological advances in center fire rounds. The 22 tends to either fragment badly, or "bounce around" inside body cavities causing multiple injuries that are difficult to repair surgically. None of which makes the 22 good for SD, but does contribute to statistics.
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  14. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I'm friends with Greg and reference his work in the article.

    I'll try and find a new link to the DOJ study.

    There is no data supporting that the .22 kills more people beyond Ellifritz's article.


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    Well then I relied on the only study we have.

  15. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    But what is an average shooters going to be more accurate with: the. 22 or the 500? Remember the 22 accounts for more gun deaths worldwide than any other caliber. I am not selling 22 for SD, but only pointing out it is a lethal round. All you have to do it accurately shoot it.
    I am not average.


    If lethality is your goal I would suggest small pox or the flu.
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  16. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    I am not average.


    If lethality is your goal I would suggest small pox or the flu.
    Good to hear. I am not average either. I also would not us 22 for SD not suggest that anyone does unless they have no other option. Lethality is not my goal. A well placed incapacitating shot is. Well placed means it might well be lethal from any caliber,
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