When to Carry a .40 S&W over a 9mm?

[deadguy]

I found this info useful with regards to 9mm vs. .357 SIG. Just putting it out there.

Lucky gunner test.

9mm in 3.9" bbl. .357 Sig in 4.47" bbl. Using load originally designed for .357 Sig, 125gr (HST LE), and comparing to 9mm 124gr +P HST, identical results out of two different length barrels.

[graydude]

The 9mm just plain sucks. Sure, it’s adequate when multiple officers are pouring rounds in to one subject, or if your tactics are burst fire.
Other than that, it’s just a cheap training round, lol.

Lol! Guess I’d better toss my .380 then. ;)

[BBMW]

.38 special, especially out <=2" barrel snubbies, is inadequate, add to this the fact that the snubbies usually only carry 5 rounds, and are hard/slow to reload, and that's a rule out.

.380 is even weaker than .38 special. Doesn't have the combination of bullet mass and velocity to deliver both adequate penetration and expansion. Unless I needed somthing REEEAAAALLLLLYYYYY tiny (meaning a Seecamp), it's a rule out.

9mm is adequate. With modern hollowpoint ammo, it will do the job. It also works out of guns that are significantly small. For a small carry gun, something like a P365, or if you need smaller, a PM9, will do the job. But if you can carry a bigger gun, carry a bigger round.

.357 magnum. I like the round. But needs at least a 3" barrel to be worthwhile, and it's a revolver round. In the size/weight of a 3"+ barrel 6/7 shot revolver, I feel I can do better with an auto, in auto calibers.

357 SIG. Supposed to be .357 magnum ballistics in a autoloader friendly cartridge. But it doesn't quite get there. Basically ends up being a SAAMI rated 9mm +P+ round. And what support it had in the LE world seems to be ending. This will drive up the cost and drive down the availability. If you want this size bullet, just stay with 9mm.

.40 is the bigger round to move to from 9mm. Better combination of penetration and expansion than 9mm. And guns chambered for it still have decent mag capacities. If the gun will give a full three finger grip without a pinky extention, I'd go with this.

10mm is .40 adding overpenetration. This is especially true that bullet manufacturers design their 10mm bullets around .40 S&W velocities. I've seen tests with 10mm rounds where the bullets expand past their maximum diameter fold back to the smaller diameter, then overpenetrate. This isn't good. 10mm sounds good in theory, but in really it doesn't bring much, if anything more to the table than .40, at least in the current available loads, and it isn't popular enough in the LE community for the ammo companies to design bullets around it. Also pushes gun size up.

.45: better penetration/expansion than .40, but has a big impact on gun size and mag capacity. Also, the ammo is designed around 5" barrel guns. Most carry guns now have 3-4" barrels. If you want to strap on a full size 1911, it's a great round. But in general, guns that chamber it are not very size efficient, and have mag capacity issues.

Big bore revolver rounds (.44 mag, .45 long Colt, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .50/.500 anything.): Have fun hunting with them (which is what they're designed for.) Ridiculously size and weight inefficient as defensive carry guns. Controlled follow up shots are not happening with any speed, And, of course, as revolvers you get 6 shots max. Sorry, I'd rather have 13 rounds of .40.

I'm sure LOTS of people are going to disagree with these assessments, but it is what it is. Flame away.

I only trust 9mm and .38 special for bad-breath fighting distances. I like .40 S&W. I love 10mm. I like .45 ACP. I like .357 magnum. I love .45 Colt. I love .44 magnum. I like .454 Casull. I own and carry all of them depending on the situation.

[Nix]

I think you may be generalizing there a bit........

[rx7sig]

I found this info useful with regards to 9mm vs. .357 SIG. Just putting it out there.

Lucky gunner test.

9mm in 3.9" bbl. .357 Sig in 4.47" bbl. Using load originally designed for .357 Sig, 125gr (HST LE), and comparing to 9mm 124gr +P HST, identical results out of two different length barrels.

deadguy,

1. I think LG tests its 9mm using a 3.5" bbl.
2. Compare your 9mm 124 gr. Federal HST/Speer GD +P, against .357 Sig 125 gr. Underwood GD, using a 4" bbl. Velocity and power are nowhere close.

rx7sig

[MMinSC]

FBI does something and its monkey see-monkey do, when they are the ones who started the whole damn controversy because of their own jacked up tactics..

Well, if I was part of a predawn, commando style raid on the Florida house of a 67 year old suspect that was so elusive he did not even posses a passport, and so wily his lawyer offered to have him turn himself in, I would want nothing less than the superior stopping power of the 9mm. The guy was so deadly he was wearing a t-shirt that said, "Roger Stone Did Nothing Wrong", during the raid. If ever there was a need for the higher capacity and spray+pray capability of the 9mm, not to mention the superior tactical brilliance of the FBI, that was it. You guys can carry whatever caliber you want but the 9mm equipped FBI suffered not a single casualty during that dangerous raid. I'll stick with 9mm and go home safe at night.

[deadguy]

deadguy,

1. I think LG tests its 9mm using a 3.5" bbl.
2. Compare your 9mm 124 gr. Federal HST/Speer GD +P, against .357 Sig 125 gr. Underwood GD, using a 4" bbl. Velocity and power are nowhere close.

rx7sig

You are correct. The M&P 9c with 3.5" bbl. That is still an inch shorter than the Glock 31, and showing identical penetration and expansion in arguably one of the most favored SD rounds. I do understand that other ammo manufacturers will have rounds with different test results, but my point here was to show a comparison between two calibers in their expansion and penetration, the two statistics that should matter most in a self defense round.

[rx7sig]

I do understand that other ammo manufacturers will have rounds with different test results, but my point here was to show a comparison between two calibers in their expansion and penetration, the two statistics that should matter most in a self defense round.

deadguy,

My understanding is, the .357 Sig was designed originally to have ballistics that mimic 125 gr. 357 Magnum ammo out of a 4" bbl revolver (that is, ballistics comparable to 125 gr. Underwood GD)--which has a very long track record of being effective for LEO usage and personal self-defense. My practice ammo is 125 gr. .357 Sig Speer GD, but my carry ammo is the Underwood GD.

rx7sig

[G-man*]

The 9mm is kinda to shooters what training wheels are on a bicycle to a new rider:)

[G-man*]

You are correct. The M&P 9c with 3.5" bbl. That is still an inch shorter than the Glock 31, and showing identical penetration and expansion in arguably one of the most favored SD rounds. I do understand that other ammo manufacturers will have rounds with different test results, but my point here was to show a comparison between two calibers in their expansion and penetration, the two statistics that should matter most in a self defense round.

So basically you are just spending more money and carrying a pistol that is longer in length, to do the same job that the kraut cartridge is doing, lol. Get outa here!

[Nix]

The 9mm is kinda to shooters what training wheels are on a bicycle to a new rider:)

A bit harsh.

The 9mm is older than my favorite, the 45 Auto, and it's going stringer than ever. It is a universal caliber now. Several Militaries and Law Enforcement agencies have transitioned from 45 Auto to 9mm. I can't think of any where the opposite is true.

The 9mm is a good round. The shooter does his or her job, the Parabellum will do it's job.

[graydude]

The 9mm is kinda to shooters what training wheels are on a bicycle to a new rider:)

Bet you'd enjoy a Glock 10mm, man.

[Struckat]

I found this info useful with regards to 9mm vs. .357 SIG. Just putting it out there.

Lucky gunner test.

9mm in 3.9" bbl. .357 Sig in 4.47" bbl. Using load originally designed for .357 Sig, 125gr (HST LE), and comparing to 9mm 124gr +P HST, identical results out of two different length barrels.

I see no identical results there.
The +P 9mm is a 115 seems close tested against moderate Sig loads, except maybe the Winchester, for the 357Sigs 125gr loads. Underloaded 357 Sig is like cheap 10mm running at 40 speeds.
Full power 357 Sigs are running 1450ish from a 229 3.9” barrel.
Not sure what their motivation is, but it’s slanted data.

This is always the argument from the 9mm crowd in order to feel better about themselves. Then comes the +P+++ bla bla bla.

I like 9mm and have three of them. Two are for shooting pleasure and one tiny gun for occasional carry.

[deadguy]

I see no identical results there.
The +P 9mm is a 115 seems close tested against moderate Sig loads, except maybe the Winchester, for the 357Sigs 125gr loads. Underloaded 357 Sig is like cheap 10mm running at 40 speeds.
Full power 357 Sigs are running 1450ish from a 229 3.9” barrel.
Not sure what their motivation is, but it’s slanted data.

This is always the argument from the 9mm crowd in order to feel better about themselves. Then comes the +P+++ bla bla bla.

I like 9mm and have three of them. Two are for shooting pleasure and one tiny gun for occasional carry.

For the record, I'm in the 45acp crowd.

I'm not impressed by handgun velocities, regardless of the caliber, if the round doesn't expand appropriately and penetrate effectively at measured velocity. I want my JHP to go deep enough, and expand to the max, whether it's moving at 750fps or 1200fps.

[StevePVB]

I would never carry a .40 over a 9.

Because, I don't own a .40.

That's no excuse. Get one.