Good article on FBI ammo tests and how they apply to non-LE SD - Page 2

Good article on FBI ammo tests and how they apply to non-LE SD

This is a discussion on Good article on FBI ammo tests and how they apply to non-LE SD within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It is no surprise to anyone here that I only like jello as a comparitor, that is compare new bullets/ammo to what we KNOW works ...

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Thread: Good article on FBI ammo tests and how they apply to non-LE SD

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    It is no surprise to anyone here that I only like jello as a comparitor, that is compare new bullets/ammo to what we KNOW works on the street in a wide number of shootings covering a wide number of variables.

    Winners I saw from decades of observation and study were;

    125 grain 357 magnum ( or any 357 magnum)
    357 Sig
    9mm +P+
    40 S&W with either 135 grn or 144 grn bullet. The 40 is unique in that, depending on the load it can perform similar to a 357 magnum or a 45 ACP.
    44 magnum loaded with light fast JHP's.
    45 ACP +P

    The one thing to remember about the new tests is that for the last 20 years all service pistol ammo has been designed to work the same, some uploaded, some down loaded. Even the venerable 357 magnum has been downloaded. I carry handloads in revolvers for SD.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS1980 View Post
    Nice article, but I have a fundamental objection to one of the premises of the author - therefore his conclusions are not acceptable to me.

    "As a starting point, the FBI testing protocol is a reasonable place to begin a search for quality self defense ammo. However, the standard was developed for users that are in different circumstances than most armed citizens who carry a gun for self defense."

    Really? Shooting another human being in order to stop their behavior, how is a LEO's circumstances different than an armed citizen? Nope. Point weapon, pull trigger, hit target, see effects, repeat as necessary - applies equally to both the LEO and non-LEO alike.
    No, that is not the implication of that statement. Read the article. It references the fact that non-LEOs are less likely to have to shoot through car glass, car steel, sheet rock and plywood. Non LE might have to do any of those in very rare circumstances, but it is not the norm.
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  3. #18
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    No, that is not the implication of that statement. Read the article. It references the fact that non-LEOs are less likely to have to shoot through car glass, car steel, sheet rock and plywood. Non LE might have to do any of those in very rare circumstances, but it is not the norm.
    Did read the article. The statement stands in the article without modification or reference. Also, as stated, LEOs and Non-LEOs shoot for the same reasons (at least that is what the law says) so the likelihood of circumstances (outside a Warrant Service by SWAT with long guns and shotguns) being radically different are negligible.
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDRGlock View Post
    I recall a study where they shot goats. Sounded more applicable than inanimate objects.

    We know from hunting that rifles and shotguns are effective. But even those aren’t a one stop shot. The animal still travels a distance from where they were hit. Applied to humans, it’s hard to say what a stop can mean. In the latency period to incapacitating the individual they can still cut, stab or shoot you.

    Is one bullet enough? It depends upon what you hit and if the recipient would like another dose by advancing on his or her perceived prey. But the show of potential force I’m sure can be a deterrent in a more reasonable intact sane individual.


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    If by goats, you are referring to the mythical “Strasbourg Test”, it is, in fact, mythical.

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  7. #21
    New Member Array rlggray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    I carry handloads in revolvers for SD.


    Me too. I haven't bought any factory ammo since Trump got elected. I like 357 magnum for carry, and I'm pretty sure that any of my magnum hand loads would meet FBI standards, so I don't waste my time worrying if my carry ammo would be effective.

    But more than anything, I believe that shot placement is elnumero uno. If you hit the BG in the CNS with a 22 WMR TMJ, you win. Of course if you miss the BGs CNS with a 22 WMR TMJ, you'll probably just make him mad.
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array CDRGlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    If by goats, you are referring to the mythical “Strasbourg Test”, it is, in fact, mythical.

    As in, it didn’t happen, and is a work of fiction.
    Wow!

    I didn’t know that.


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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array MMinSC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    It is no surprise to anyone here that I only like jello as a comparitor, that is compare new bullets/ammo to what we KNOW works on the street in a wide number of shootings covering a wide number of variables.

    Winners I saw from decades of observation and study were;

    125 grain 357 magnum ( or any 357 magnum)
    357 Sig
    9mm +P+
    40 S&W with either 135 grn or 144 grn bullet. The 40 is unique in that, depending on the load it can perform similar to a 357 magnum or a 45 ACP.
    44 magnum loaded with light fast JHP's.
    45 ACP +P

    The one thing to remember about the new tests is that for the last 20 years all service pistol ammo has been designed to work the same, some uploaded, some down loaded. Even the venerable 357 magnum has been downloaded. I carry handloads in revolvers for SD.
    No regular 45 ACP HP?
    From your list (of adequate size bullets), it seems that speed is the common denominator for effectiveness. Do you believe that to be the case?
    Also, this might be too specific but for the calibers like 9mm+P+ and 45 ACP +P, do you have any observations about the effectiveness of bullet weight vs velocity? For example, a 185 gr 45+P for higher velocity vs a 220 gr+P or 115 gr 9mm+P+ vs 147 gr. ?
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  10. #24
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    I carry Ranger T, not because it's necessarily the best, but because I found a terrific price on them. Still, they are a good choice. I also have several HST's. No matter what ammo one decides upon, if you can't hit your target, it doesn't matter.
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMinSC View Post
    No regular 45 ACP HP?
    From your list (of adequate size bullets), it seems that speed is the common denominator for effectiveness. Do you believe that to be the case?
    Also, this might be too specific but for the calibers like 9mm+P+ and 45 ACP +P, do you have any observations about the effectiveness of bullet weight vs velocity? For example, a 185 gr 45+P for higher velocity vs a 220 gr+P or 115 gr 9mm+P+ vs 147 gr. ?
    I used to be a heavy for caliber guy because that worked better for hunting. I unconsciously moved to lighter (within reason) and faster because to me, they seemed to work better. I am no more a fan of the standard pressure 45 than I am the standard pressure 9mm. A 147 grain 9mm turns it into a 38 special and that IS NOT a good thing to me. Higher energy rounds seem to make bigger wounds and have more predictable results. Low energy rounds tend to to goofy things like deflect off ribs.

    One nice thing about a 44/45 caliber bullet is they tend to just punch a strait hole.

    Elmer Keith wrote about what different bullets did to meat, fast bullets caused blood shot meat, slow bullets allowed one to eat right up to the bullet hole. For defense I want the former.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    I could care less one way or the other. Big and slow, light and fast have all worked well for me as long as the hit was properly placed and the cartridge as a complete system was up to a balanced delivery, meaning reaching the goods.

    Terminal ballistics begin under the skin.....
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  13. #27
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    The FBI test at 10 feet. Would also like to see PCC
    Yet the FBI prioritizes penetration over expansion.
    Many people make a huge deal out of the little bit more expansion, while sacrificing penetration.
    For me, I prioritize penetration of 18", then go for the bullets that expanded the most.
    I also rather support manufactures that support civilians.
    But still, at lot of obsessing over poking a small hole.
    It's all about shot placement and making LOTS of small holes.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array hardluk1's Avatar
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    I could care less what the FBI test and there result as I know it will chnage again in the future . I also know some LE departments seem to buy ammo from different brands too over time along with the cartridge choices they carry . I still figure in 25 years the FBI maybe testing 380acp for a certain type of agent , the softer less muscled men and some ladys that feel a 9mm is to snappy ! 380acp in a 28 to 30 oz handgun might be just right in 2035 .
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS1980 View Post
    Really? Shooting another human being in order to stop their behavior, how is a LEO's circumstances different than an armed citizen? Nope. Point weapon, pull trigger, hit target, see effects, repeat as necessary - applies equally to both the LEO and non-LEO alike.
    Woah, with logic like that.

    I've learned gooder than that reading other comments online.
    Of course LEO faces a different level of attacker than those of a citizen.
    When one is in a "good" area only the minimum is deemed needed because the greatest anticipated threat is solo plus anemic & undetermined.
    Nobody in a "good" area (especially in the daytime) is going to have to defend against a LEO level attacker(s).
    In a "good" area, if one of those anemic & undetermined attackers justifies the use of lethal force, they will run away if shot at.
    And if carrying a 45 or 380 then FMJ is acceptable for non-LEO, because FMJ only overpenetrates if fired from a "service" weapon.
    Oh yea, almost forgot, if one can't save themself with 5 shots then, ... oh well.
    I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
    "Wouldn't want to or Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

  16. #30
    Ex Member Array stingray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS1980 View Post
    Did read the article. The statement stands in the article without modification or reference. Also, as stated, LEOs and Non-LEOs shoot for the same reasons (at least that is what the law says) so the likelihood of circumstances (outside a Warrant Service by SWAT with long guns and shotguns) being radically different are negligible.
    Cops make traffic stops-citizens do not. A high percentage of LE shootings happen during traffic stops.

    LEO's are tasked with dealing with numerous situations that citizens are not. There is a legitimate difference in the ammo to be used.
    M1911A1, G-man* and awoodpd13 like this.

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