Good article on FBI ammo tests and how they apply to non-LE SD - Page 5

Good article on FBI ammo tests and how they apply to non-LE SD

This is a discussion on Good article on FBI ammo tests and how they apply to non-LE SD within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; IMHO the gelatin tests do nothing more than test for specific failure modes. It was known that expansion reduces penetration, so gelatin was used to ...

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Thread: Good article on FBI ammo tests and how they apply to non-LE SD

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    IMHO the gelatin tests do nothing more than test for specific failure modes. It was known that expansion reduces penetration, so gelatin was used to maximize expansion and see if penetration was still adequate. It was known that cloth or barriers can impede expansion, so those materials were put in front of gel to see if it might still expand.

    And that's about it. If one design penetrates 2" further in gel than another, that doesn't mean it will in real life. And it's debatable whether the criteria were even well thought-out. You could have a .22 solid that "passes" the bare gel test at 12.5", and a .357 Magnum SJHP that "fails" at 11.5". Yet who would argue that the former is more effective than the latter?
    stingray likes this.
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  2. #62
    VIP Member Array ColoradoDiablo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stingray View Post
    I vehemently disagree with you that I have attacked you personally.
    You questioned my licensure (sponsored BPOC). I must have missed the part where calling someone a liar (by definition that is exactly what you did) is not a personal attack. My bad.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stingray View Post
    My point is you don't understand the situations cops find themselves in is often times much different than what an armed citizen encounters. More than one poster as tried to point this out to you, citing specific examples. Your posts show clearly you simply lack the ability to comprehend this.

    I don't believe you are, or ever were a cop. I say this because you lack basic knowledge and understanding of the job.
    At the end of the day, whether one is a member of some LEA, or Joe Citizen, it matters not. The same hopped up druggies could be threatening my life. As the old saying goes, when seconds count, the police are minutes away. In my city, the average response time for emergency calls is just under two and a half minutes. That's a really long time.

    Your failure to grasp that simple concept amazes me. I deserve the same chance to win a deadly encounter that any LEO does. I'm an American, and all Americans are equal until they prove themselves to be something far less. The Founders enshrined the right to bear arms, military weapons, for all citizens for a damn good reason. Your belief otherwise offends me because you think some people, simply because of their occupation, are better than others. That line of thinking isn't very American at all. Had the Founders followed it, this land would still be a British colony.
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  5. #64
    Ex Member Array stingray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoDiablo View Post
    You questioned my licensure (sponsored BPOC). I must have missed the part where calling someone a liar (by definition that is exactly what you did) is not a personal attack. My bad.
    I don't believe you have anything more than a claimed piece of paper, which would explain your posts, inferiority complex and attitude.

    In keeping with the topic at hand, it has been pointed out to you by more than one poster the LEO's face different situations from the average citizen. This is specifically why the ammo companies have created different projectiles to meet their requests, more suitable to their needs. You not being able to comprehend this further adds to me belief you only have a piece of paper and no experience.

    If my posts hurt your feelings, you have very thin skin.

  6. #65
    Ex Member Array stingray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    IMHO the gelatin tests do nothing more than test for specific failure modes. It was known that expansion reduces penetration, so gelatin was used to maximize expansion and see if penetration was still adequate. It was known that cloth or barriers can impede expansion, so those materials were put in front of gel to see if it might still expand.

    And that's about it. If one design penetrates 2" further in gel than another, that doesn't mean it will in real life. And it's debatable whether the criteria were even well thought-out. You could have a .22 solid that "passes" the bare gel test at 12.5", and a .357 Magnum SJHP that "fails" at 11.5". Yet who would argue that the former is more effective than the latter?

    The other thing testing in gel does, is give a consistent medium so that different calibers and projectiles can be compared against each other.

  7. #66
    Ex Member Array stingray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    At the end of the day, whether one is a member of some LEA, or Joe Citizen, it matters not. The same hopped up druggies could be threatening my life. As the old saying goes, when seconds count, the police are minutes away. In my city, the average response time for emergency calls is just under two and a half minutes. That's a really long time.

    Your failure to grasp that simple concept amazes me. I deserve the same chance to win a deadly encounter that any LEO does. I'm an American, and all Americans are equal until they prove themselves to be something far less. The Founders enshrined the right to bear arms, military weapons, for all citizens for a damn good reason. Your belief otherwise offends me because you think some people, simply because of their occupation, are better than others. That line of thinking isn't very American at all. Had the Founders followed it, this land would still be a British colony.

    What you fail to understand is what LEO's have available isn't necessarily better than what the citizen has available to them. Different does not equal better. What I carry now under LESOA is both a different caliber than what I was issues. I carry a load that is widely available to the public at large (it is even carried by some police departments.)

    Personally, I would never chose a caliber or load for self defense based on solely on what law enforcement carries.

    Your failure to grasp that simple concept amazes me.

  8. #67
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    No, I grasp the fact that citizens and law enforcement personnel have the same options quite well @stingray . That fact happens to be true because of the wisdom of the founders.

    Not once did I ever say I use the same ammunition as the FBI. I merely stated that I deserve the same access to it. I hope you are no longer on the street. Your chip on your shoulder is weighing you down, and making you less effective as a peace officer. Why you have such an attitude, I don't know, but you should work at removing it. You will be amazed at how much better people treat, and think, of you should you lose it. If you can't, then you need a new line of work because you are the type of person in uniform that makes good people hate officers. That much I do know. You are your own worst enemy. This is the last time I will respond to you.

    I do understand one thing, the FBI testing protocol matters in one important regard. It's a baseline test of effectiveness. It sets the initial bar that ammunition companies work to meet in different and varying ways. That standard has made the options available to everyone far better.

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array ColoradoDiablo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stingray View Post
    I don't believe you have anything more than a claimed piece of paper, which would explain your posts, inferiority complex and attitude.

    In keeping with the topic at hand, it has been pointed out to you by more than one poster the LEO's face different situations from the average citizen. This is specifically why the ammo companies have created different projectiles to meet their requests, more suitable to their needs. You not being able to comprehend this further adds to me belief you only have a piece of paper and no experience.

    If my posts hurt your feelings, you have very thin skin.
    I don't have an inferiority complex. I don't believe I am better because I held an active peace officer license, am a war veteran, or anything else. I realize that bothers you because you think you're special (you're not). No peace officer is. No veteran is. No war veteran is. And so on. We are all cut from the same cloth and we each make choices about jobs, commitments, etc.

    That peace officers may find themselves in different situations than the average citizen has nothing to do with my comments that we all should have access to the same equipment, ammunition, etc.

    Your posts don't hurt my feelings in the least. Your attempts to impugn my integrity reflect more on you than me.
    Marc_Brooks likes this.
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  10. #69
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