Using what you train with for defense

Using what you train with for defense

This is a discussion on Using what you train with for defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Iím getting to the point where I want to rely upon the same ammo for defense as what I use in training. This will ensure ...

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Thread: Using what you train with for defense

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Using what you train with for defense

    Iím getting to the point where I want to rely upon the same ammo for defense as what I use in training. This will ensure reliable feeding, POI vs POA consistency, and familiarity with the recoil.

    This, in turn, means defensive ammo that is affordable. As soon as itís available again, I will buy Federal XM9001 9mm JHPs in bulk, and switch back to my G26 for carry, instead of my G30. In a pinch, I would not feel too bad carrying the G30 loaded with .45 FMJ.

    For my long guns, I will likely go from reaching for my shotgun, to instead choosing a rifle in 5.56. 55gr FMJ will get the job done and is affordable. No ranges nearby allow shotguns, except with slugs, and that becomes expensive (and no fun) in a hurry.

    For my pocket pistols, I may go back to .380 FMJ, which is now almost as affordable as 9mm FMJ. I carried my LCPs so loaded for years, usually with flat points, but got swayed by some of the online tests.

    I guess Iím also just tired of paying ridiculous prices for what Paul Harrell calls ďhyper ammunition.Ē After years of using FMJ for training, while hoarding the defensive ammo...Iíve had enough.
    OD*, AnthonyC, airslot and 7 others like this.
    Carry a sidearm always. Be able to put shots into the torso and then head, if needed. The rest is much less important.

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    VIP Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Using Lucky Gunner as a reference:
    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/
    380 HP that doesn't expand (Hydra-Shok) penetrated 25'' of heavy clothed gel.
    45 HP that didn't expand (V-Crown) penetrated 31'' of gel.
    Probably a fair indication of FMJ penetration for those.
    Most LE ("experts") consider penetration past 18'' undesirable for human attacker, oh well.
    Bad Bob, airslot and 1gunsnowbird like this.
    I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    I don't think today that training with your SD ammo is as big a deal as it was in the 1970's and 1980's, more in vogue but less important, generally.

    Allow me to explain;

    If you were training with 38 Specials and carrying magnums you could be thrown off by the difference. But if you are shooting a 9mm there is not enough difference to impact anything you are going to do under stress.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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    Member Array AnthonyC's Avatar
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    I am up two minds. Of course I think it would be better to train in practice with an ammunition that he would use for self-defense. However, the cost difference overtime can be significant between FMJ and HP in ammunition.
    I too am fan of Paul Harrel's videos and his comments about hyper ammunition do seem to have some validity.
    To be perfectly blunt I don't think I've ever read an article or seen a video that discussed a negative outcome with bullet over penetration after hitting a target, i.e. human or animal attacker. That is to say I am not read anything about an innocent bystander being hit or injured by a bullet after it has already passed through an attacker. I have heard of bullets unintentionally hitting an innocent bystander after passing through walls or cars however I think that this would occur with either FMJ or HP.
    Now there are plenty of stories out there about bullets not penetrating the unknown to stop a threat.
    Lately I have become a big fan of Aguila 117 gr HP ammunition as it runs very reliably through my pistols and seems extraordinarily accurate, particularly in my little Kahr CM9. In addition to being accurate and reliable, it also is fairly inexpensive and low recoiling. I think everyone needs to find what works for them and stick with it.
    Happy shooting!
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    Distinguished Member Array KILTED COWBOY's Avatar
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    When I train I will start off with some inexpensive ball ammo to warm up with. Maybe a hundred rounds or so.
    Then I will run a few mags of my favorite SD ammo through to finish up.
    Just trying to save a few bucks.

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    At SD range the POI difference across all my carry weapons is negligible between my FMJ and HP ammo.
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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS1980 View Post
    At SD range the POI difference across all my carry weapons is negligible between my FMJ and HP ammo.
    While most of my shooting is at 5-10 yards, I will practice head shots at 15-25 yards. It can start to make a difference there.

    Iím more concerned with feed reliability though. Iím not convinced that running a few mags of premium JHPs is enough to prove reliability. And if you want to proof each mag, that adds up real fast.
    Havok likes this.
    Carry a sidearm always. Be able to put shots into the torso and then head, if needed. The rest is much less important.

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    Senior Member Array entertainment72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    If you were training with 38 Specials and carrying magnums you could be thrown off by the difference. But if you are shooting a 9mm there is not enough difference to impact anything you are going to do under stress.
    I'm in the same camp. I'll try some defensive ammo to make sure they run in my gun. But I don't feel the need to train with the same ammo. Defensive shooting is not the same as Bullseye shooting. So when the adrenaline dump hits your system during a defensive encounter you are not likely to have the same accuracy which you would have while practicing at the range. I want to be as accurate as possible. But when the stuff hits the fan I just want to make solid hits to the best of my ability.
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    Member Array m5215's Avatar
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    I just use the same bullet weight for both my SD and FMJ rounds that I use in 9MM and .40 S&W as that is close enough to me for similarity.

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    I do think it is wise to train with what you carry in your SD weapon. I carry 9mm in a PPS M2. It s my only gun, and will not get a friend. It has a 3" barrel, and consistent expansion can be an issue even in 9mm when the barrel is short. I did much research on the best ammo for my needs. I too wanted the training ammo to be the same as my SD ammo. After watching te Ammoquest reviews on YouTube and reading reviews of ballistic testing I originally settled one HST 147gr JHP. Then I cadges because I saw that Winchester made a Train & Defend 147 gr ammo, Train is FMJ that is shaped like the JHP Defend, has the same weight, and recoil characteristics. Testing showed it expanded consistently but a bit less than HST, but it penetrated more consistently and deeper than HST. I place penetration over expansion. So I bought some tried it.

    50 Rounds of Train cost me $16, and 20 rounds of Defend cost me $22. So price was nor an issue. I shot the Train ammo and then the Defend ammo and could not feel a difference in recoil. So loaded a couple magazines with the ammo mixed in each. I fired of the ammo in both mags. I could not tell what was being fired based upon the recoil. Velocities are nearly identical. So I decided to switch from HST to the Winchester. For me it is problem solved. Lesser expensive training ammo coupled with more expensive defensive ammo that is not priced unreasonably. Months later and many range rounds fired I am a happy camper with my choice.

    I have posted the video or those who would like to see the comparison testing of the Federal HST and the Winchester Train & Defend.

    ETXhiker and M1911A1 like this.

  12. #11
    New Member Array rlggray's Avatar
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    I reload 38 special and 357 magnum Gold Dots for carry. I have a recipe that works (poa/poi) for each revolver in my carry rotation.

    I also work up a (very cheap) swchp recipe that has the same poa/poi as the Gold Dot in each gun for practice.

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    Distinguished Member Array dennis40x's Avatar
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    I have fired enough 147Gr-JHP be it Federal HST, Remington Golden Saber, and Winchester Ranger- (in the several hundreds of each mentioned brand)- to know there shouldn't be functionality problems in the S&W Shield 9X19mm. With that said I shoot a mixture of -115,124&147Gr FMJ bullet weights in my reloaded ammunition backed up by a supply of WWB, Federal and Federal Brass commercial ammunition. Shooting at POI at 7 & 10 Yds. We have no problem with 3" and 6" scoring rings of the IDPA humanoid targets. If their is a difference in recoil effects over the decades of shooting I've become immune at least with the 9X19mm. I have stated/written in jest that I've fired enough 45ACP and etcetera to fill 55Gal drums with the empties.
    ETXhiker likes this.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    I practice with the ammo I carry. My carry gun gets shot with the ammo that has been carried in it. I want to know that it is reliable as carried.
    CDW4ME, ETXhiker and M1911A1 like this.
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    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Iím in agreement on this. Iíve long felt that we have been shook down by the companies producing high dollar ď premium ď defense ammo. And in assistance to their marketing are articles written in rags and inet blogs , and YouTube videos that give credibility to that end.
    Pictures of fully bloomed HPís expanding in gelatin are further enticing to the masses, fully convinced that if they donít have the good stuff, they are not properly armed.

    Several ways that I get around the hype and ignore the white noise is by carrying a big bore.

    Another thing is to buy plain old Remington or Winchester white box hollow point ammo in the economy boxes of 100 rounds for the 45 and 9mm. In this way, it doesnít hurt the wallet at all to periodically pull a weapon I have been toting and randomly fire off the ammo in it just to ensure magazine springs are still good, and the weapon would have run right if I had really needed it at the particular time.

    And finally, I buy the bullets as a component, and handload them to a specific power level, verify function and velocityís over the chronograph, double check feeding reliably by dropping them in a headspace gauge, and then loading up a couple of 50 round boxes to have as reserves.
    I can handload 100 rounds of premium bullets to the specs I want about as cheap as one, 25 round box ď self defenseĒ ammo costs.
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    VIP Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    I mostly carry a 642 J frame. Shooting 50 or more of even 38+P would leave my wrists aching for a week or more. But I can shoot 100 reduced loads without suffering. I'll practice with practice ammo and just shoot a cyl or two of carry ammo. At short range I don't notice any POI changes. Its not till I get out past 25 yards.

    My larger guns, I don't get that wrist pain. From a full sized gun I can shoot 45 colt, .357, 45 acp, etc... without wrist pain. In those I shoot what I carry. But I carry Reloads, Win White Box, Rem Golden Sabers, etc....
    bmcgilvray and ETXhiker like this.

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