Max-expansion .44 Special or Lower Velocity Max-expansion loads in .44 Magnum - Page 2

Max-expansion .44 Special or Lower Velocity Max-expansion loads in .44 Magnum

This is a discussion on Max-expansion .44 Special or Lower Velocity Max-expansion loads in .44 Magnum within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by entertainment72 Here is some load data I loaded mine a bit warmer for the 44 magnum. I don't care about keeping velocity ...

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Thread: Max-expansion .44 Special or Lower Velocity Max-expansion loads in .44 Magnum

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entertainment72 View Post
    Here is some load data
    I loaded mine a bit warmer for the 44 magnum. I don't care about keeping velocity down to 1100 fps, that is not why I use magnums.

    200 grn GD

    2400 - 21.5-22.5
    Tight group 9.7-10.8
    win 296 27.5-28.5

    Since I have 296 on hand I used that, 28 grains. They shoot great.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array entertainment72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    I loaded mine a bit warmer for the 44 magnum. I don't care about keeping velocity down to 1100 fps, that is not why I use magnums.

    200 grn GD

    2400 - 21.5-22.5
    Tight group 9.7-10.8
    win 296 27.5-28.5

    Since I have 296 on hand I used that, 28 grains. They shoot great.
    I can't definitively say what the 200 gr 44 Gold Dots will do when loaded to be above 1100 FPS. But from what I've read is that going beyond that threshold causes them to fragment and possibly under penetrate. On the rare occasion I carry my Alaskan I load it up with the Speer 44 Mag load because IMO standard 44 Mag loads are a bit too hot for urban areas where I primarily find myself. At the end of the day the 44 Mag Gold Dot load is just a hot 44 SPL load in a 44 Mag case.

    I'd be curious to hear any results you've had with your warmer Gold Dot 44 loads. I reload, but only for the range and I'm not trying to start any argument about carrying handloads. But hey, You're Bad Bob...and I'm not
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array pskys2's Avatar
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    Underwood also makes some 44 special SD loads. One for Bulldog type Revolvers and one for more robust frames. For 44 Magnum you might look for some Glaser Ammunition but most 44 Mag stuff will over penetrate and show poorly in street level shooting reports.
    The LEO who helped with a CC class I attended had been shot by a Charter Arms Bulldog with a Silvertip load. He said the round was through and through with no expansion and he was able to return fire with his service 9mm and stopped the attack.

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  5. #19
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    I've waffled back and forth on the issue of the effectiveness of a bullet which performs "correctly" vs one which "fails". Pushing the velocity of many of the lighter hollowpoints tends to result in the "failure" of the bullet, that is to say it doesn't retain its weight well, often fragmenting excessively into lots of little shards. So, if such a bullet is delivered COM and only provides 6" of penetration in the ribcage, is that really a failure? My experience using such loads on animals such as deer and antelope would indicate that it's not a failure at all, my experience has shown that the hollowpoints which disintegrate and provided only a half-dozen inches of penetration tended to offer spectacular results, dropping the animal in its tracks. Lots of little shards from the fragmented bullet gave spectacular tissue destruction of the internal organs. Would I want this when hunting dangerous game such as big bears, no, but on the thin-skinned lighter game, the results speak for themselves. Does this translate to SD ammo intended for two-legged critters? I don't know. If the shot were side-angling having to penetrate the tricep and humerus before entering the chest, the results would probably not be an instantaneous stop. Frontal COM, likely very quick results in my opinion. Of course, this really only applies when using a cartridge which is capable of "over-driving" a bullet, cartridges such as the various magnums, the 10mm Auto, etc.
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entertainment72 View Post
    I can't definitively say what the 200 gr 44 Gold Dots will do when loaded to be above 1100 FPS. But from what I've read is that going beyond that threshold causes them to fragment and possibly under penetrate. On the rare occasion I carry my Alaskan I load it up with the Speer 44 Mag load because IMO standard 44 Mag loads are a bit too hot for urban areas where I primarily find myself. At the end of the day the 44 Mag Gold Dot load is just a hot 44 SPL load in a 44 Mag case.

    I'd be curious to hear any results you've had with your warmer Gold Dot 44 loads. I reload, but only for the range and I'm not trying to start any argument about carrying handloads. But hey, You're Bad Bob...and I'm not
    It IS a bonded bullet. The reports I saw from guys using this at magnum velocities indicated that there was some fragmentation caused by some of the petals breaking off. Even if all the petal folded back and broke off, which of course causes more wound channels still leaves a larger projectile to penetrate. just for reference I will show one of my favorite jello videos of a 357 magnum.






    And here is a diagram from Marvin Fackler with a 55 grain 5.56 and 50% fragmentation.

    Max-expansion .44 Special or Lower Velocity Max-expansion loads in .44 Magnum-m16a2_m855_5.56x45mm_nato_wound_ballistics.gif

    As you can see fragmentation is not bad as you have been told it is by the Followers of Gary Roberts. Much worse would be using shotgun birdshot or a Glaser safety Slug which both cause massive, shallow wounds.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    A video with the 44 GD. A 44 @ 1100 FPS is a great load but.......
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array entertainment72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskys2 View Post
    Underwood also makes some 44 special SD loads. One for Bulldog type Revolvers and one for more robust frames. For 44 Magnum you might look for some Glaser Ammunition but most 44 Mag stuff will over penetrate and show poorly in street level shooting reports.
    The LEO who helped with a CC class I attended had been shot by a Charter Arms Bulldog with a Silvertip load. He said the round was through and through with no expansion and he was able to return fire with his service 9mm and stopped the attack.
    Underwood doesn't offer the more robust Gold Dot load on their site anymore. Likely people did load them up in their Charter Arms or other older 44 SPL and had some "exciting" results.

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array pskys2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entertainment72 View Post
    Underwood doesn't offer the more robust Gold Dot load on their site anymore. Likely people did load them up in their Charter Arms or other older 44 SPL and had some "exciting" results.
    Didn't realize that. I found the Bulldog load to be plenty hot a 200 GD @ 900f/s+. The hotter load ran up to 1100 f/s, which was a bit hotter than what I wanted for a carry load, at the time I was using a M29-3 4".
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  10. #24
    Ex Member Array Two Bears's Avatar
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    It seems almost everyone including Douletap that offered a .44 Special using the Speer 200gr. they listed at 1100fps has discontinued the ammo. I wonder why? Why isn't anyone loading this bullet or something equivalent at 1000 FPS tailored for short barreled .44 Specials and .44 Magnums for the police/self-defense market?

    Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Handgun Ammunition 23971, .44 Remington Mag, Hollow Point (HP), 200 GR, was listed at 1075 fps but again is discontinued.

    What seems to be the problem?

    Max-expansion .44 Special or Lower Velocity Max-expansion loads in .44 Magnum-417090.jpg

  11. #25
    Member Array Tennessee Jed's Avatar
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    44 Magnum defensive ammo is hard to find.

    I've been looking into this for a while now. I've found the above referenced 200 grain Speer Gold Dots that are no longer made by Speer, so all that's left with that bullet are Underwood, DoubleTap, and a couple of other small makers who put that bullet in a 44 Special.

    There are a couple of other rounds still in existence that were initially offered as 44 magnum defense ammo. One is the Federal Hydra Shok, a 44 caliber hydra shok bullet at somewhere around 1200 fps. Another is the Winchester 210 grain Silvertip which I've chronographed in my 629 at about 1200 fps. I'd call both just slightly reduced recoil. I have no idea how either performs in gel tests, but I've read a little bit that said the Hydra Shok might fragment, but the Silvertip does pretty well.

    I think Corbon still has a 225 grain DPX bullet, don't recall the velocity, but the price was enough for me to pass.

    Buffalo Bore offers a big 190 grain semi-wadcutter 44 Special hollowpoint that sounds good in principle, but again, I can't find anything on actual performance.

    That 180 grain round Bad Bob references above I think is very interesting. I used to shoot a lot of those and, man, they are really LOUD with a big ol' flame coming out of the barrel.

    Personally, I have for the moment settled on the Winchester 210 grain Silvertips. Recoil is very close to 240 grain bullets at about 1100 fps, so I handload 240's to that level and am trying to get good with the recoil.

  12. #26
    Ex Member Array Two Bears's Avatar
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    I have used the Winchester 210 grain Silvertips in my Ruger Super Redhawk 7 1/2" for years and they work great. I'm just not so sure how they would handle or perform out of a 2 and 1/2 " barrel in performance. Oh. well, when I get the snubby I'll experiment.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Anytime you have a 200 weight load at or above 900 fps, of 40 cal or greater, and you are concerned with performance then you are overthinking the issue and dithering over nothing.

    Bullet design and structure is the deciding factor from that point onward.
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  14. #28
    Ex Member Array Two Bears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    Anytime you have a 200 weight load at or above 900 fps, of 40 cal or greater, and you are concerned with performance then you are overthinking the issue and dithering over nothing.

    Bullet design and structure is the deciding factor from that point onward.
    The bullet design and structure is what I am looking into. Any suggestions?

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Bears View Post
    The bullet design and structure is what I am looking into. Any suggestions?
    Based on the parameters you set forth in the OP, it would appear to me that any 180 HP weight bullet design should work.

    There is no problem finding HP bullets that work in the 45 auto, or 45 Colt, both of which have similar velocity and bullet weights as a 44 spl.
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  16. #30
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