Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue - Page 6

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

This is a discussion on Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ex Soldier, I notice that you list Coral Gables as home. I miss-spent my middle school and high school years in Kendall. Keep that head ...

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Thread: Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

  1. #76
    Member Array lazarus long's Avatar
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    Ex Soldier,

    I notice that you list Coral Gables as home. I miss-spent my middle school and high school years in Kendall. Keep that head on 360 degree alert down there.
    You live and learn, or you don't live long. - Heinlein

  2. #77
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    Thanks to the OP for a good read.

    The OP is right when he says that ballistic gelatin does not tell the whole story. Wet newspapers and red clay do not tell the story either.

    I have been a dedicated hog hunter for the past ten years. Most of my hogs have been killed with a .50 muzzleloader. The past couple of years much of my hog hunting has been done with centerfire rifles. The man who owns the places I hunt on wants lots of dead hogs. He said wussing around with a muzzleloader was not getting it done.

    Wild hogs are a good test median for bullets. They are plentiful and, like humans, they come come in a variety of sizes up 350 pounds or so. One of the most effective hog killers is the military 5.56 mm M193 ball round. At ranges up to 150 yards when fired from a 20-24" barrel, that little 55 grain bullet penetrates about 5", yaws 90 degrees and fragments.

    Last week I killed a 270 pound boar hog that was hit just behind the diaphragm: Range was about 40 yards. Fragments of that 55 grain military bullet shredded the diaphragm, heart and lungs. The hog was DRT.

    At ranges in excess of 150 yards of so the bullet starts to lose its magic.

    Army Col. Martin Fackler is the worlds foremost authority on military wound ballistics.

    A good read:

    Military bullet wound patterns

  3. #78
    Senior Member Array mojust's Avatar
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    Excellent discussion, sometimes essay quality. I've gotten fairly proficient at putting four rounds of nine millimeter center mass in about 1.5 seconds thanks to the Sig short reset trigger on my 228. I also shoot other calibers, but feel most secure with high capacity. I have a MecGar mag for my 226 that gives me 21 rounds. It is quite acceptable for me to to get off four rounds on the first encounter.
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  5. #79
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    I think that was more information than I needed, but a good post.

    We will continue to debate the effect of different calibers till the end of time.
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  6. #80
    Ex Member Array Two Bears's Avatar
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    It is so hard to get clear, honest, and accurate information on terminal bullet effects you really should write a book for the poor working folk that desperately need this type of information to very possibly make intelligent choices that could save their lives. Their is so much hype/BS out the man and woman on the street NEEDS a no BS fact based source they can depend on go steer them right. Do you realize how many small town cops get information from Cop TV shows? I have spotted rookies where I live and struck up casual conversations with them to casually drop hints to help them. Most actually had never though about what I tell them but see my point. Your knowledge really could save lives!
    Last edited by Two Bears; January 24th, 2020 at 03:03 AM.

  7. #81
    Ex Member Array Two Bears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    WELCOME! I was stationed at Lewis in the early 1980s with the 9th ID, then. Did my time in a line infantry battalion as a platoon leader then jumped up to Division Staff. We had a saying about humping a rucksack in the Rainier Training Area: "Travel light, FREEZE at night." Is it still that way? Sky clear as a bell without any clouds and temps about 70 degrees; then five hours later the temps drop 30 degrees and it pours?

    In between my time on the line and on the staff I did a stint on the Division Pistol team as the XO.

    You want to be real careful about engaging multiple targets with the fabled "Double Tap" which is really a term from Hollywood & can be broken down into two real categories: The HAMMER and the CONTROLLED PAIR. The former is so fast it almost sounds as one shot and the other is much slower and is usually a pair of aimed shots. The problem with either is that when you are engaging multiples you might be putting shot #2 into target #2 and give target numbers 3 or 4 ample time to put one or more into YOU.

    Think of it like being a good host: EVERYBODY GET'S "FIRSTS" BEFORE ANYBODY GET'S "SECONDS." Put one round into every target before you put any into one twice or more.
    I agree totally, shoot until your BG goes down and ceases his actions. Check your six as you reload for more BGs.

    In the Army as a platoon leader in command of a drug prisoner that had to be checked out and cleared before he could be taken to lock-up I left the prisoner cuffed to an examination table to check him in but under watch of my E-5. The emergency doctor a Captain pulled rank and brow beat my E-5 into taking the cuff off the prisoner which he should never have done but sent for me; but he did. To make a long story short the "comatose" drug dealer suddenly came very much conscious and no longer being retrained leaped of the examination table grabbed a nurse and a scalpel that should have never been out in sight. Now I had a hostage situation. He wanted transportation to Kadena Air Base next to the Hospital grounds and naturally a plane off the island of Okinawa. Yea, like that was going to happen. I went in unarmed and distracted him as more of my men arrived, the nurse did perfect as she fainted, he died in that emergency treatment room when he refused to drop his weapon and turned toward me. He took three rounds of .45 ACP ball before he went down.

    This 2Lt. read the riot act to that Captain Doctor as we had security over his medical to simply evaluate him as he found out the hard way. I was so mad I threw what I assumed was a set of scrubs at him and told him he should clean up HIS mess. I assume it was all just made to go away as no one ever even contacted my men at our unit or me. Amazing but that was not the worst thing I saw happen.
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  8. #82
    Ex Member Array Two Bears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I believe the question, or perhaps the suggestion to consider is; is the original author not seeing as many 45 caliber victums in the morgue because the 45 is not as deadly?

    I am not saying this is the case, just saying a good statistician could make an argument that that's why there are not as many 45 victums in the morgue, they all get to go to the hospital.

    Just proves the expression, Figures don't lie, but liar's do figure. Anyone can draw any conclusion from any data set, given enough time, paper and alcohol!

    As for me, personally I think the OP makes a good case for the 45 caliber. Does that mean I am going out and buy one? Not at this time. Maybe some day but I feel confident enough in my EDC verses potential threat at this point.
    I believe you see less .45 ACP dead victims in the morgue is because it usually takes less shots from a .45 to stop someone than it does from a 9MM. The more times you shoot someone the more chances you are going to strike something that cannot be repaired in time to save them. That does not make the .45 ACP better as you need to shoot what you can shoot most accurately since accuracy trumps all followed by bullet construction and function. While I carry and use a .45 ACP I started shooting a 1911 .45 ACP at an extremely young age so it became instinctive for me by the time I was a teenager. If you can handle the 9MM that way I have no problem with that what so ever. Differences in ammo used such as ball, HP, and the rations can also make a difference. I do know if you are an innocent civilian who is standing behind someone being shot with a 9MM with standard ball FMJ or some being shot with a .45 ACP using standard ball FMJ; who is at greater risk.

  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    WAIT! Not MY experience, the experiences of the original poster who works in a morgue! I used to work in a hospital morgue when I was 19 as part of the hospital security team when I was home from college for the summer. Part of my job was to put away the stiffs, er I mean the remains of the deceased when they expired after hours and record the toe tag info for the morning shift. I also supervised the weekly pickups of remains by the various funeral homes. That job was the first time I not only realized that the dead bodies continue to MOVE after death but I actually saw them and experienced some pretty dramatic stuff first hand. Had a dead body get a muscle contraction and sit up on a gurney. His back was like a US Marine at attention, but his head dangled forward. He had air trapped in his diaphram (spelling?) and it all rushed out causing him to loudly moan. I nearly fainted. Had I been armed on that job, I might have shot him.

    Biker RN have you ever seen that kind of thing? Or any of the medical personnel around here?

    But that brief job experience in no way pertains to THIS thread!!!!
    Way back as a pup, a friend and I shared a house. He worked in the hospital morgue. He told me a very similar thing happened to him! Only he said he didn't stop running until he was outside (from in the basement).
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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Bears View Post
    I agree totally, shoot until your BG goes down and ceases his actions. Check your six as you reload for more BGs.

    In the Army as a platoon leader in command of a drug prisoner that had to be checked out and cleared before he could be taken to lock-up I left the prisoner cuffed to an examination table to check him in but under watch of my E-5. The emergency doctor a Captain pulled rank and brow beat my E-5 into taking the cuff off the prisoner which he should never have done but sent for me; but he did. To make a long story short the "comatose" drug dealer suddenly came very much conscious and no longer being retrained leaped of the examination table grabbed a nurse and a scalpel that should have never been out in sight. Now I had a hostage situation. He wanted transportation to Kadena Air Base next to the Hospital grounds and naturally a plane off the island of Okinawa. Yea, like that was going to happen. I went in unarmed and distracted him as more of my men arrived, the nurse did perfect as she fainted, he died in that emergency treatment room when he refused to drop his weapon and turned toward me. He took three rounds of .45 ACP ball before he went down.

    This 2Lt. read the riot act to that Captain Doctor as we had security over his medical to simply evaluate him as he found out the hard way. I was so mad I threw what I assumed was a set of scrubs at him and told him he should clean up HIS mess. I assume it was all just made to go away as no one ever even contacted my men at our unit or me. Amazing but that was not the worst thing I saw happen.
    Must have been a Marine. I was an Army MP in the Army, we had this thing about rank vs authority. I could see an E-2 making that mistake but not an E-5, but an E-5 95-B had at least 3 years on. That is unfortunate, since I am retired one of my USMS contracts calls for me to guard prisoners in the hospital. In the last 8 years none have given me any grief, but I don't give them much opportunity either.
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  11. #85
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  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Lazarus award.

    Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue-alive.jpg
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  13. #87
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    Wow! Great post...thanks for sharing your experience.

    Itís where the rubber meets the road.
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  14. #88
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    The resurrection of a decade old thread!!!! Is this another "The Walking Thread"?
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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I have no idea how old this article is and it appears to have been bouncing around the various forums for quite awhile.
    It has been around since 2006. Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue

    It is apparently fake.

    deadmeat posted here on The High Road and gave some very inconsistent answers. Apparently, he wasn't a coroner, but a physical anthropologist. Nobody does 8.2 autopsies a day 365 days a year. That is pure BS. He is apparently out of Atlanta. There may have been 3000 autopsies done by the lab in a year, but he sure as hell didn't do all of them. At the time, they had over ~20 coroners working. Of course, a lot of those autopsies had nothing to do with GSWs.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...ective.207527/

    Also see...
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph.../#post-7753323
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  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Must have been a Marine. I was an Army MP in the Army, we had this thing about rank vs authority. I could see an E-2 making that mistake but not an E-5, but an E-5 95-B had at least 3 years on. That is unfortunate, since I am retired one of my USMS contracts calls for me to guard prisoners in the hospital. In the last 8 years none have given me any grief, but I don't give them much opportunity either.
    The last 4 years I was on active duty I was assigned to Evans Army Community Hospital. USAMEDDAC is almost a completely different organization than the actual Army. In MEDDAC you're your specialty first and your rank second. A Captain who is a Dr. Is still the Doctor and he's in charge even if the nurse is a Lieutenant Colonel. Of course at that level there was usually a certain level of professionalism and any doctor would be a fool not to listen to the advice of an experienced nurse but the doctor was still the doctor.

    I was working in the ER one night and we had an E3 91C (LPN) overseeing patient care and an E7 91B doing his ER rotation that kept trying to pull rank on her. She tried politely to explain to him that while she respected his rank she was a nurse and he wasn't and we were going to do it her way. He started to throw a fit and she picked up the phone. Five minutes later the SDO showed up and walked him out of the ER.
    Bad Bob and OldChap like this.

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