Do you feel over penetration matters much? - Page 2

Do you feel over penetration matters much?

This is a discussion on Do you feel over penetration matters much? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Not that big of a concern, if someone wanted to break in most likely it would be on the north side of the house. My ...

View Poll Results: Do you think over penetration matters?

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  • Yes

    37 34.58%
  • No

    66 61.68%
  • I'm not sure

    4 3.74%
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Thread: Do you feel over penetration matters much?

  1. #16
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    Array msgt/ret's Avatar
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    Not that big of a concern, if someone wanted to break in most likely it would be on the north side of the house. My neighbor is 3/8th of a mile away and unless I was shooting due north there is little chance of hitting their house. I would be more concerned with having enough penetration to stop criminal’s actions.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    There is another problem with overpenetration that doesn't get as much attention. It is discussed in the FBI ballistics report and Grant Cunningham has mentioned it. A bullet that has overpenetrated has not transferred all its energy to the target and therefore has not maximized its potential for tissue disruption.

    I'm thinking that may be compensated for by the increased possibility of hitting the CNS, depending on its trajectory, and the fact that it creates two holes in the body instead of one, theoretically doubling the paths for decompression of the blood/air "hydraulic system." But those sources thought it was important enough to mention, so I thought I'd throw it into the discussion.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  3. #18
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    If a bad guy is intent on doing grievous bodily harm to me, mine, or anyone I'm sure is a victim, I really won't mind if the same bullet makes him bleed out of two holes instead of one. As long as one prepares mentally on a daily basis to not panic and miss with multiple shots and keep your cool enough to be able to move and get a better angle under pressure..........over penetration isn't a common enough occurrence to cause much concern.
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    That does it!!!! Next BIG BANG someone has GOT to do something about this getting old crap......

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  5. #19
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    I think under-penetration is a greater danger than over-penetration. Having said that, I'm not a fan of FMJ roundnose for SD, they tend to over-penetrate, but worse, the round nose tends to allow vasular structures to slide by. The round nose tends to cause the minimum damage possible as it slides through tissues.

    My carry pistols are all stoked with Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense bullets which tend to provide ample penetration and tissue disruption, perhaps the best of both worlds or so the justification to myself goes.
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  6. #20
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    I am cognizant of where my home is in our subdivision and possible trajectories. I've thought long and hard about how and where to shoot to avoid the neighbors, but a man has to protect his family and his castle. Things never happen as you think they will...plan ahead as best as you can.
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  7. #21
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Never worry about over penetration, just under penetration that doesn't get deep enough to get to any number of organs.

  8. #22
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    I think that many people have been conditioned to the point that there can be no reasonable discussion of this issue. Minds are made up and set in concrete. Even those of us having actual experience with small arms in combat situations cannot argue with the tacti-cool mall ninja who has read half-a-dozen magazine articles or internet blogs and considers himself the ultimate expert. Nothing but more noise on the forum to incite argument.

    Here are my basic principles:

    Bullet hits intended target, good. Bullet misses intended target, not so good.
    Bullet causes sufficient tissue damage to result in bleeding out through entry wound, good. Exit wound allowing more rapid bleed out leading to unconsciousness/incapacitation, even better.
    Small bullets tend to make small wounds. Bigger bullets tend to make bigger wounds.
    Handgun wounds are seldom fatal, seldom instantly incapacitating. More wounds are better when ending the fight is the objective.
    The object of the exercise is survival. Everything else can be dealt with later, assuming you survive.

    Now all the experts can slap me down and call me silly.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to be challenging here, just curious: For those of you who said overpenetration doesn't matter, do you carry JHPs? If so, why not FMJs?
    Sheepdoggit likes this.
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  10. #24
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I'm not trying to be challenging here, just curious: For those of you who said overpenetration doesn't matter, do you carry JHPs? If so, why not FMJs?
    Over penetration might matter if there was evidence suggesting it occured frequently enough/reported frequently enough. Last f b i report I read, they stated they'd had agents injured or killed for lack of penetration but never had documented a situation where over penetration had injured an innocent.

    On occasion I've carried ball 230 grain 45acp in a 1911. Never worried about over penetration. Plenty of gang bangers use ball ammo and I've never seen a report that there was a pass through hitting a bystander. More people miss than hit, it's the misses I'd be more concerned about myself.

  11. #25
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retired badge 1 View Post
    I think that many people have been conditioned to the point that there can be no reasonable discussion of this issue. Minds are made up and set in concrete. Even those of us having actual experience with small arms in combat situations cannot argue with the tacti-cool mall ninja who has read half-a-dozen magazine articles or internet blogs and considers himself the ultimate expert. Nothing but more noise on the forum to incite argument.

    Here are my basic principles:

    Bullet hits intended target, good. Bullet misses intended target, not so good.
    Bullet causes sufficient tissue damage to result in bleeding out through entry wound, good. Exit wound allowing more rapid bleed out leading to unconsciousness/incapacitation, even better.
    Small bullets tend to make small wounds. Bigger bullets tend to make bigger wounds.
    Handgun wounds are seldom fatal, seldom instantly incapacitating. More wounds are better when ending the fight is the objective.
    The object of the exercise is survival. Everything else can be dealt with later, assuming you survive.

    Now all the experts can slap me down and call me silly.
    I don't think anyone can argue with the logical thinking above.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepdoggit View Post
    Do you feel over penetration matters much? Or do you just concern yourself with minimum penetration? Let the double entendres fly.
    It doesn't matter nearly as much as missing completely.
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I'm not trying to be challenging here, just curious: For those of you who said overpenetration doesn't matter, do you carry JHPs? If so, why not FMJs?
    I carry truncated FMJs in my .380...
    AzQkr, bakes, Wavygravy and 1 others like this.
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  14. #28
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    A friend of mine had an incident occur in a rental unit of his. This guy, probably drunk, in the middle of a heated argument with his wife/girlfriend, put a 9mm loaded with FMJ to his chest and pulls the trigger. The bullet passed through his chest and lodged just under the skin of the woman behind him. She had a superficial wound, didn't take too much more than a bandaid, his wound was more serious but he survived.

    My friend decided rentals are more trouble than they're worth, at least to him.
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  15. #29
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    Lots of folks focus on the reported terminal ballistics, usually based on testing such as ballistic gelatin. That is all well and good, but I think it overlooks a few more basic and important points.

    1. Does my carry ammunition fit properly in my magazines, feed flawlessly every time in my pistol, fire consistently, extract every time, eject clearly every time?
    2. Does my carry ammunition reliably place point of impact at point of aim with my pistol?

    Absolute reliability should be the first criteria. Everything else is negotiable, but reliability is not. If my carry pistol will not function 100% of the time with anything other than FMJ round nose, then FMJ round nose is what I will carry in that pistol.

    Many years ago I was a young police officer. We carried .357 magnum revolvers every day. Range qualifications were done using .38 Special wadcutters, and anything other than a passing score was a red flag for your future assignments. But many (too many) left the range after qualifying with their revolvers loaded with .357 magnum ammo, and no idea what the point of impact might be at any given range because they had never fired that ammo on the range under controlled conditions. I suspect that there are lots (way too many) people carrying pistols every day, doing their training and practice with ball or cheap FMJ ammo, then charging up their mags with super-duper high-velocity gut ripping "defensive ammo" that they have never completed a qualification course with, never done an extensive function testing with, and probably have no idea where it will hit in relation to point of aim.

    There is no perfect solution for every person or situation. You use what works, do your best, try to survive. Everything else can be worked out later, assuming you survive.

    NOTE: THIS WAS INTENDED AS A REPLY TO JMF552'S POST ABOVE, BUT FOR SOME REASON THE "REPLY WITH QUOTE" LINK DID NOT ENGAGE AS EXPECTED.
    msgt/ret and PhaedrusIV like this.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by retired badge 1 View Post
    Lots of folks focus on the reported terminal ballistics, usually based on testing such as ballistic gelatin. That is all well and good, but I think it overlooks a few more basic and important points.

    1. Does my carry ammunition fit properly in my magazines, feed flawlessly every time in my pistol, fire consistently, extract every time, eject clearly every time?
    2. Does my carry ammunition reliably place point of impact at point of aim with my pistol?

    Absolute reliability should be the first criteria. Everything else is negotiable, but reliability is not. If my carry pistol will not function 100% of the time with anything other than FMJ round nose, then FMJ round nose is what I will carry in that pistol.

    Many years ago I was a young police officer. We carried .357 magnum revolvers every day. Range qualifications were done using .38 Special wadcutters, and anything other than a passing score was a red flag for your future assignments. But many (too many) left the range after qualifying with their revolvers loaded with .357 magnum ammo, and no idea what the point of impact might be at any given range because they had never fired that ammo on the range under controlled conditions. I suspect that there are lots (way too many) people carrying pistols every day, doing their training and practice with ball or cheap FMJ ammo, then charging up their mags with super-duper high-velocity gut ripping "defensive ammo" that they have never completed a qualification course with, never done an extensive function testing with, and probably have no idea where it will hit in relation to point of aim.

    There is no perfect solution for every person or situation. You use what works, do your best, try to survive. Everything else can be worked out later, assuming you survive.
    And this is why I shoot target ammo at the same grain roughly the same FPS as my carry ammo. It is also why I fire both (though a lot less of the Federal HST) when I shoot at the range, etc.
    Rockymonster and Wavygravy like this.
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