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Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

This is a discussion on Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 I understand the difference between training and practice. When an instructor who I'm paying good money to advises me that my ...

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Thread: Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

  1. #166
    VIP Member Array Cornhusker95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I understand the difference between training and practice. When an instructor who I'm paying good money to advises me that my purposes in his class would be better served with a particular set-up, I generally take him at his word.
    Well you know the old saying....Some guys will believe anything and pay you money to believe it
    I am kidding....This has been good thread.

  2. #167
    VIP Member Array Texas Red's Avatar
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    Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you
    I don't see it as an either - or situation.

    To me, one isn't more essential than the other. Both are critical in a SD encounter.

    I think it was Wild Bill Hickok, when asked about his success in gunfights, who said, "You have to able to move fast, slowly."
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

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  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Red View Post
    I don't see it as an either - or situation.

    To me, one isn't more essential than the other. Both are critical in a SD encounter.

    I think it was Wild Bill Hickok, when asked about his success in gunfights, who said, "You have to able to move fast, slowly."
    Nor do I. Clearly, that POV is not the only one in evidence here. Personally, I'll never sacrifice a tenth or two simply as a means of tightening up the shot group, when a tenth or two can make the difference between success and failure.
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  5. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    His "I just want to see a graduate of this technique" identifies one of the problems Mike. As you know, it's not simply one skill within the genre of threat focused, known otherwise by some as point shooting.

    Perhaps the person could demonstrate something using fsp/MT or flash sight picture that can't be accomplished by threat focused. You speak from experience on the skills, others speak uneducated opinions having never been formally introduced to the skills. One of the best answers was your reply that having taken multiple MT/FSP formal training over many years, .
    Ah, but I am not trying to sell anyone on anything.

    You see, the basic narrative that you are putting forth is that, with your training and instruction, for a small fee of course, will make or give someone a skill set that they otherwise would not have with the most widely and taught methods within the MT system.

    And just to be clear, and not get this thing watered down with straw man arguments, my position is that threat focused shooting does not give one who is properly oriented in the use of FSP, any advantages.

    As a matter of fact, I find just the opposite. People who have developed in the use of FSP, can point shoot, as the same proprioception that is touted in the use of threat focused shooting is also developed in FSP. And, the use of the front sight allows far greater accuracy with no loss in speed. And of course the validity in this is not lost on those who train thousands of students in this country every year.

    Additionally, the need to get locked in to a position to make these point shooting threats on a target limit the fluid motions that are required in a dynamic and realistic encounter. But, by using a flash sight picture, this is not an issue, as even not perfect shots will still be at least as good as those taken using body alignment , such as locking in and using the “ tank turret” motion we have seen; especially as the distances are ever changing or unknown.

    Now, we have seen the “ boot scoot shuffle” that was inappropriately labeled sprints and hits, however, to me this is certainly not a skill that I would hang my hat on if I had to get out of the way quickly while responding with fire.

    So, as one who can do both, point shoot and FSP, I find absolutely nothing of value in threat focused shooting. I can do both at speed, or on the move, but the sight picture gives me far greater consistency of good hits where I desire them to be.

    So naturally I must ask as a consumer, what am I getting that I don’t already have? It’s not a trick question.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  6. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I've yet to see anyone who has actually gone through any of your courses say anything negative about your techniques, methods, results or you personally.

    Anybody?
    Of course not. The mods are not going to take sides. But it does not mean that they have not stated their issues to the contrary to other members:)
    They are professional, and desire to be objective.
    Mike1956 likes this.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  7. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Ah, but I am not trying to sell anyone on anything.

    You see, the basic narrative that you are putting forth is that, with your training and instruction, for a small fee of course, will make or give someone a skill set that they otherwise would not have with the most widely and taught methods within the MT system.

    And just to be clear, and not get this thing watered down with straw man arguments, my position is that threat focused shooting does not give one who is properly oriented in the use of FSP, any advantages.

    As a matter of fact, I find just the opposite. People who have developed in the use of FSP, can point shoot, as the same proprioception that is touted in the use of threat focused shooting is also developed in FSP. And, the use of the front sight allows far greater accuracy with no loss in speed. And of course the validity in this is not lost on those who train thousands of students in this country every year.

    Additionally, the need to get locked in to a position to make these point shooting threats on a target limit the fluid motions that are required in a dynamic and realistic encounter. But, by using a flash sight picture, this is not an issue, as even not perfect shots will still be at least as good as those taken using body alignment , such as locking in and using the “ tank turret” motion we have seen; especially as the distances are ever changing or unknown.

    Now, we have seen the “ boot scoot shuffle” that was inappropriately labeled sprints and hits, however, to me this is certainly not a skill that I would hang my hat on if I had to get out of the way quickly while responding with fire.

    So, as one who can do both, point shoot and FSP, I find absolutely nothing of value in threat focused shooting. I can do both at speed, or on the move, but the sight picture gives me far greater consistency of good hits where I desire them to be.

    So naturally I must ask as a consumer, what am I getting that I don’t already have? It’s not a trick question.
    Over FSP from the holster at distances of twelve feet or less? Probably about a full second.
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  8. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Of course not. The mods are not going to take sides. But it does not mean that they have not stated their issues to the contrary to other members:)
    They are professional, and desire to be objective.
    Professional moderators??? You are a funny guy, hence the like.
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  9. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Over FSP from the holster at distances of twelve feet or less? Probably about a full second.
    I can aim as fast as not aim at those distances with much better shot placement. Now, maybe from the hip non sighted fire is faster, but once again, that is a very limited scope of application which does not require any special instruction to learn.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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    “ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
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  10. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Professional moderators??? You are a funny guy, hence the like.
    Well, let be rephrase then; they conduct themselves in a professional manner.
    10thmtn and Mike1956 like this.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  11. #175
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Ah, but I am not trying to sell anyone on anything.

    You see, the basic narrative that you are putting forth is that, with your training and instruction, for a small fee of course, will make or give someone a skill set that they otherwise would not have with the most widely and taught methods within the MT system.

    And just to be clear, and not get this thing watered down with straw man arguments, my position is that threat focused shooting does not give one who is properly oriented in the use of FSP, any advantages.

    As a matter of fact, I find just the opposite. People who have developed in the use of FSP, can point shoot, as the same proprioception that is touted in the use of threat focused shooting is also developed in FSP. And, the use of the front sight allows far greater accuracy with no loss in speed. And of course the validity in this is not lost on those who train thousands of students in this country every year.

    Additionally, the need to get locked in to a position to make these point shooting threats on a target limit the fluid motions that are required in a dynamic and realistic encounter. But, by using a flash sight picture, this is not an issue, as even not perfect shots will still be at least as good as those taken using body alignment , such as locking in and using the “ tank turret” motion we have seen; especially as the distances are ever changing or unknown.

    Now, we have seen the “ boot scoot shuffle” that was inappropriately labeled sprints and hits, however, to me this is certainly not a skill that I would hang my hat on if I had to get out of the way quickly while responding with fire.

    So, as one who can do both, point shoot and FSP, I find absolutely nothing of value in threat focused shooting. I can do both at speed, or on the move, but the sight picture gives me far greater consistency of good hits where I desire them to be.

    So naturally I must ask as a consumer, what am I getting that I don’t already have? It’s not a trick question.
    Yup, just more opinion stated as fact. "I find absolutely nothing of value in threat focused shooting", yet hundreds of AAR's from fsp trained shooters like Mike who have taken the training have found value in those skills. That includes some of our own highly trained fsp military personnel.

    That you don't find value is all well and good, but your assessment as someone who's not taken the training holds much less weight with the community at large over long time fsp formally trained shooters like Mike and others who have taken the training. You're entitled to your opinion, but people should realize your opinion is an uneducated opinion having not attended/experience said training.

    Hell, you can't even demonstrate flash sight picture correctly at eye level. Instead you fell into that below line of sight at the nose mouth level you'd just disparaged before you fired those 3 shots. I found that more than entertaining. Next time you tell people you're going to shoot flash sight picture, perhaps you could actually employ it properly. IMO, if I'd not actually mentioned you were below line of sight most members may havfe continued to believe you were using what you said you were going to use, which you did not.

    Now, you can argue all you like slightly below line of sight is still flash sight picture, but if you argued that with the originator you'd lose. Cooper was adamant about what that skill entails and where the gun is placed at line of sight. Make all the excuses after the fact, but you didn't shoot flash sight picture, you weren't at eye level.

  12. #176
    Distinguished Member Array CavemanBob's Avatar
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    You can be the most accurate shooter in the world but if it takes a person 3 seconds to present and shoot, you may have absorbed a lot of lead before getting on target, if you can even still get on target. My line of thinking is that being fast is more important, getting that first shot off before your opponent increases the chances that he'll miss and your chances aren't good if the BG gets off a half-dozen rounds while you're getting your gun out. Of course, it's even better if you're fast and accurate, but slow will get you dead.

    That said, my firearms training officer when I was in the Sheriff's Dept. always said to work on accuracy, speed will come with practice. Practice, practice, practice!
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  13. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Yup, just more opinion stated as fact. "I find absolutely nothing of value in threat focused shooting", yet hundreds of AAR's from fsp trained shooters like Mike who have taken the training have found value in those skills. That includes some of our own highly trained fsp military personnel.

    That you don't find value is all well and good, but your assessment as someone who's not taken the training holds much less weight with the community at large over long time fsp formally trained shooters like Mike and others who have taken the training. You're entitled to your opinion, but people should realize your opinion is an uneducated opinion having not attended/experience said training.
    Im sorry, but this isn’t a popularity contest, and it’s not about me . I’m not looking for “weight” in my opinion. I don’t need to throw around names, AAR’s, or anything else to pose a question, or have an opinion, right? I realize this is a tactic of yours to quench any real hard look or questions about your product, but I believe my questions and concerns are valid, and that my background and experience allow me to make very good comparisons and have those opinions. I’m not trying to sell a ticket here or look for validation, I’m interested in advancing and providing as much information as possible to those who may be looking for some training or advancement in their skills.

    So naturally, when you are continuously self promoting your “ skills”, the question that comes to mind is the validity of the “ skills”. That should be expected of people. It should be expected that people may disagree and express valid opinions.

    To say, well, your opinion doesn’t count because you haven’t taken my class, is not the correct response, nor is berating those with differing opinions.

    And again, I ask a simple question, what does this technique born at the turn of the century and largely abandoned by the professional world offer that the modern day methods of training and tactics do not?
    And also, let’s keep it focused on the techniques and the merits or lack of with respect to realistic application and not devolve in to personal attacks. We should be able to have this discussion for the benefit of the community as adults.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  14. #178
    VIP Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    I liked the videos by both glockman10mm and AzQkr
    The girl in AzQkr video is able to put hits on close target quickly, would serve her well at close distance as shown.
    I prefer to acquire my front sight, even if its just a flash of it, for any distance past up real close.

    For me, going back & forth between two different platforms, Glock & 1911, or different carry positions, inconsistency could cost 1/2 second.

    Original topic, speed vs accuracy and difference of about 1/2 second.
    I'd carry the one I had most confidence in, especially if its the most comfortable concealed all day. Is it the same pistol?

    About that 1/2 second.... Unless that first hit(s) are CNS the threat has up to 10 seconds to shoot back despite being fatally hit.

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  15. #179
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    It should be expected that people may disagree and express valid opinions.

    It is expected, and a valid opinion can form from an educated and uneducated opinion, having not experienced first hand. Separating informed/educated opinions from those who've experienced the training [ the wheat ] from the uneducated opinion [ the chaff ] is paramount.

    For example, your opinion weighed against a highly trained decades fsp military person.

    The really interesting part about all of these skills came when we got the shot timer out. At every position I was able to shoot faster than with the front sight press and just as accurately. I won't belabor the exact times (mostly because I didn't write them down, and don't want to misstate them). But, from a practical standpoint at each distance (2, 3, 4, 5 yards) I was able to take 2, and sometimes 3 shots, or engage 2 targets, in the same time I could take one shot on a single target using the front sight press.

    Overall, getting point shooting training was a success. It doesn’t detract from my ability to use the sights if I think there’s adequate time to make precision shots, but if I need to get COM shots on target quickly, and am within ~5 yards, I’m confident I can connect quickly and effectively. Also, as my eyes continue to age I won’t need to worry as much about getting a pristine front sight focus, if it’s in close I can stay threat focused, focus on a point to hit, and let ‘er rip.

    In the end, sunburn, dehydration, and eyes stinging from sweat and sunscreen... totally worth it.

    Seems a high level fsp trained mil found value in the course and skills. Whether you do or not is irrelevant, you don't speak from experience.

  16. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
    I liked the videos by both glockman10mm and AzQkr
    The girl in AzQkr video is able to put hits on close target quickly, would serve her well at close distance as shown.
    I prefer to acquire my front sight, even if its just a flash of it, for any distance past up real close.

    For me, going back & forth between two different platforms, Glock & 1911, or different carry positions, inconsistency could cost 1/2 second.

    Original topic, speed vs accuracy and difference of about 1/2 second.
    I'd carry the one I had most confidence in, especially if its the most comfortable concealed all day. Is it the same pistol?

    About that 1/2 second.... Unless that first hit(s) are CNS the threat has up to 10 seconds to shoot back despite being fatally hit.

    Yep. We agree! Glock or 1911. Either could have the deciding advantage on any given day. I like them both, so I will use them both:)
    CDW4ME likes this.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
    -Jeff Cooper

    “ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
    -Joe Foss

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