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Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

This is a discussion on Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Over FSP from the holster at distances of twelve feet or less? Probably about a full second. That’s a very reasonable ...

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Thread: Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

  1. #196
    Member Array Rick McC.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Over FSP from the holster at distances of twelve feet or less? Probably about a full second.
    That’s a very reasonable assessment.

    I’d also like to mention another lack of understanding about the capabilities inherent in threat focused shooting. You do NOT have to be “locked in,” to a shooting position, or suffer a loss of mobility. Anyone who’s had the training knows that. The skill called the zipper, which is actually shooting while moving the pistol seamlessly through four different positions (putting different skills together). The zipper is one of many skills learned by all participants early on during their first morning. After the basic skills are acquired, movement while shooting is covered quite a bit, all the way up to shooting multiple targets while running. Just another example of not knowing what you don’t know, because you’ve never been exposed to it.
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  2. #197
    Member Array Rick McC.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I know there are several members here, including mods who have trained with you. I've yet to see anyone who has actually gone through any of your courses say anything negative about your techniques, methods, results or you personally.

    Anybody?
    I don’t think you’ll find anyone, and that in itself speaks volumes.

    Same with Brownies h2h and blade training courses. Yeah, I’ve been through those too. More tools in the tool box...

    As far as you doing any demo for “him,” the hell with that! Let him take the training, then see what he thinks after that.

    There’re hundreds of us that know, and one of him that doesn’t. He can either make an effort to truly get better, or continue on “knowing” he’s already as good as he can be.
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  3. #198
    Member Array Rick McC.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forester58 View Post
    Neither is mine but, why would I change holsters,gun and carry method for training? Training for what? My assumption is training for a fast draw stroke from open carry with a gun and a method I don't typically use so my question stands. Training for what outcome exactly that relates to self defense while carrying concealed in my everyday life?
    Well, the only thing you’re adding is the cover garment sweep, held up with the thumb while making the scoop draw. That’s something I use at IDPA practice every week, and at the monthly matches. Now, my cover garment is an untucked shirt, not a tacticool vest set up for the shooting games.

    Since I’ve been shooting IDPA for over 11 years now, I don’t need additional training to include use of a cover garment. Those that do can practice their draws for as many hours a week as they’d like at home.

    At most square ranges, they won’t be able to draw from the holster, either.
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  5. #199
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornhusker95 View Post
    One thing i learned from this thread....A couple of you are miles apart on this subject.
    And it is clear you are both dug in on your feeling about it.
    Actually we're not, I've always agreed fsp/mt has it's place in one's possibles bag. Use the skill myself often enough. It's never been an either or, it's always been both.
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  6. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick McC. View Post
    I don’t think you’ll find anyone, and that in itself speaks volumes.

    Same with Brownies h2h and blade training courses. Yeah, I’ve been through those too. More tools in the tool box...

    As far as you doing any demo for “him,” the hell with that! Let him take the training, then see what he thinks after that.

    There’re hundreds of us that know, and one of him that doesn’t. He can either make an effort to truly get better, or continue on “knowing” he’s already as good as he can be.
    Dont see you on here much. Are you one of the Florida point shooters crew? Must be a special occasion for you to pop in here.

    You don’t need to come off so angry. I was just asking a question, to which I have received one answer that makes sense. Oh, and I have been exposed to threat focused shooting, which is why I have come to my own conclusion.

    What does threat focused shooting enable you to do ( assuming your vision is good) that the MT does not allow for?
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  7. #201
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    I have been exposed to threat focused shooting, which is why I have come to my own conclusion.

    I wonder who the threat focused shooting instructor was? His background?

  8. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Dont see you on here much. Are you one of the Florida point shooters crew? Must be a special occasion for you to pop in here.

    You don’t need to come off so angry. I was just asking a question, to which I have received one answer that makes sense. Oh, and I have been exposed to threat focused shooting, which is why I have come to my own conclusion.

    What does threat focused shooting enable you to do ( assuming your vision is good) that the MT does not allow for?
    It allows me to make sub-one-second hits from concealment.

    Edit: I'm one of the Florida point-shooting crew, and you see me here all the time.
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  9. #203
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I have been exposed to threat focused shooting, which is why I have come to my own conclusion.

    I wonder who the threat focused shooting instructor was? His background?
    I ask simply because there was a supposed threat focused instructor in Fla several years ago putting on courses. Come to find out I had two of this guys students in one of my courses subsequently. At first break after two skills, both wanted to talk to me off to the side. They said they learned more in the last two hours than all day with this other supposed TF instructor and I didn't teach it the same way he did. They felt they got cheated, told them to take it up with that trainer.

    I was just made aware there's another supposed TF instructor in Fla holding court fairly regularly. I checked his creds, no formal training courses himself. In fact he was teaching fsp for years before hanging his TF card on his schedule. Little more research and asking around, he played with it with the first supposed TF instructor the two students had experience with.

    When I got home I did some research on the gent they mentioned. Army SF combat vet during VN, NO background or formal training in TF himself, let alone from a known TF instructor. The name of the instructor who exposed you to TF and their own professional training in TF is the question I have, based on the above.

    BOT, balancing sufficient speed and sufficient accuracy will be most important in any future DGU I may be involved in. Each scenario will see more importance placed on one or the other, but ya gotta have the speed when it's called for starting behind the curve. Which goes back to another threat I started here:

    https://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...d-masters.html

    I like this one from Cooper written in April 1961--"All good combat shots are fast". In Coopers book "Principles of Personal Defense" he stated on page 26 relative speed of draw-----"Be quick, speed is your salvation" [ the word speed is italisized in trhe book as I posted it here ].

    Cooper believed speed was one's salvation in a DGU. Not everyone will agree with that, but this coming from someone considered an emeritus in SD with a pistol.
    Last edited by AzQkr; August 4th, 2019 at 10:24 AM.
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  10. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornhusker95 View Post
    Well that is good place to start and a real time saver...But we aren't robots...Of course if you are spot on from a rest and you miss
    out hunting no matter how you have to take the shot... it's is your fault...Sitting and shooting off a rest is not close to how you are gonna take that shot out hunting.
    in most cases...Don't we make the argument on here that the real world is not sitting on a range and standing in one spot punching holes in paper.

    Sighting in has nothing to do with practice or training?...So you just sight in your hunting rigs with a half box of shells off a bench
    and say i am good...You throw a few arrows in your yard from the ground in your gym shorts and sleeveless shirt and call it good?
    Did I say that? No, I said sight in. My last great hunting rifle, a Remington 742, I had so many rounds thru it I wore the action out. No, I shoot my guns. Where I live the average shot on a whitetail is 300 yards, you better be able to shoot your rifle.

    My AR's, I sight from a bipod and I shoot 3 gun with, is that bench shooting? Your logic falls flat in the face of reality.

    So let me guess, you sight your rifles in off hand?
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  11. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Did I say that? No, I said sight in. My last great hunting rifle, a Remington 742, I had so many rounds thru it I wore the action out. No, I shoot my guns. Where I live the average shot on a whitetail is 300 yards, you better be able to shoot your rifle.

    My AR's, I sight from a bipod and I shoot 3 gun with, is that bench shooting? Your logic falls flat in the face of reality.

    So let me guess, you sight your rifles in off hand?
    I am ambidextrous

  12. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Dont see you on here much. Are you one of the Florida point shooters crew? Must be a special occasion for you to pop in here.

    You don’t need to come off so angry. I was just asking a question, to which I have received one answer that makes sense. Oh, and I have been exposed to threat focused shooting, which is why I have come to my own conclusion.

    What does threat focused shooting enable you to do ( assuming your vision is good) that the MT does not allow for?
    Sir, I’m not angry at all.

    As far as the conclusions you’ve come to concerning threat focused shooting, what you’ve been “exposed to” must not be the same that we’ve been trained in.

    Yes, I’m one of the Florida people. My family came here on a wagon train in 1831.

  13. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick McC. View Post
    Sir, I’m not angry at all.

    As far as the conclusions you’ve come to concerning threat focused shooting, what you’ve been “exposed to” must not be the same that we’ve been trained in.

    Yes, I’m one of the Florida people. My family came here on a wagon train in 1831.
    And I drove down there to train with you in my Mitsubishi. As a result, we know what we know.
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  14. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    And I drove down there to train with you in my Mitsubishi. As a result, we know what we know.
    Indeed we do, and it sure gets tiresome hearing folks who don’t know what they don’t know making statements about the skills we have as if they don’t/can’t exist, because they “know better.” In fact, they just don’t know.

    After my first TFP course (I had pneumonia, and my back was out during that one, so I remember it well), the owner of another gun forum asked me if I would come to their annual BBQ and demo the skills I’d just learned, as they were thinking about having Brownie develop a TFP course for mobility challenged individuals.

    I went to the BBQ, and provided about a five minute demonstration.

    I’ll never forget the first comments I got from a guy as I walked off the range. He asked; “did you really do what I just saw, or was it some kind of a Jedi mind trick?”

    I told him that it was no trick, and after one weekend of training, he’d be able to do the same. He took that course, and it changed his life, as it has for many others. His own words.
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  15. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick McC. View Post
    Sir, I’m not angry at all.

    As far as the conclusions you’ve come to concerning threat focused shooting, what you’ve been “exposed to” must not be the same that we’ve been trained in.

    Yes, I’m one of the Florida people. My family came here on a wagon train in 1831.
    Possibly not. And that is why I am still waiting to see a benefit for me in that skill genre that MT does not give me.

    Im also curious as to why the origin of the technique by Sykes and Fairbairn, then Applegate concluded that it was only good for very short distances with an emphasis on the crouched position and gun raised to eye level, but we see it promoted as everything from hip to distance shooting as a combat skill.
    And of course, that raises the question of , if, the weapon is raised to line of sight or just an inch below, why not just use the sights?

    And further, why was it abandoned and rendered obsolete, largely forsaken by basically every major school of thought and training, whether professional of arms or shooting schools?

    If it was, as the originators suggested only good at very close distances, or were they wrong? And if they were right, then why is it promoted in the way it is today?

    And of course, it begs the question, if the originators were right, and it is only relevant for very CQB, then why does it take special training to learn, that people who are already proficient in FSP are very capable of doing?

    So yes, so many questions but so far, no answers, and no one that can really demonstrate any advantages for me, that compliment, or even enhance the skills I have already attained.

    So, I know, I just don’t know what I don’t know

    But so far, I haven’t seen anything that makes me a believer, although I can see where it may have merit with those who cannot see their sights, or limited applications.

    But I'm open and still waiting.
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  16. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    And I drove down there to train with you in my Mitsubishi. As a result, we know what we know.
    Mitsubishi?

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