Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you - Page 17

Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

This is a discussion on Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm I didn’t. I was referring to the “ point shoulder technique. This is the one that I find the most ridiculous ...

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Thread: Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

  1. #241
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I didn’t. I was referring to the “ point shoulder technique. This is the one that I find the most ridiculous method of unsighted fire, because if you have the time to raise it to this level, the sights are right there....just use them.

    You're entitled to your opinion,

    The half hip and other below line of sight positions are easy enough to do by any one using the MT and even having a basic grasp on the fundamentals, that it’s not even debatable.

    That's debatable, and is directly refuted by one student who's taken the training in this thread and dozens of other students in previous AAR's.

    For clarification, I believe point shoulder is inferior to sighted fire for the reasons stated above.

    You're entitle to your opinion, others who've taken the training disagree.


    Why did you misstate FSA as being line of sight skills? Who was this TF instructor who "exposed" you to point shooting?

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    If you are truly focusing on the threat, then you are not looking at the sights.

    If you are looking at both the sights and the target, you are using a flash sight picture, not a “ threat focused shooting “ skill.

    You are either using the sights or not.
    Yes, threat-focused utilizes the sights beyond point-shooting distances. "Flash sight picture" is, IMO simply a denial of shifting the focus to the target by FSP adherents and advocates.
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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Yes, threat-focused utilizes the sights beyond point-shooting distances. "Flash sight picture" is, IMO simply a denial of shifting the focus to the target by FSP adherents and advocates.
    So if the sights are utilized, then what makes it different from sight use based system such as the MT? In using the sights, the sight and target are both in the visual.
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  5. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Why do you keep referring to threat-focused shooting as "unsighted"?
    I meant to bring this up previously and got side tracked. The sighted fire/unsighted fire debate came about by fsp trainers who believed if you weren't making use of your sights, it was unsighted fire. The distinction made by them based solely on the use of sights or lack thereof.

    TF is sighted fire just like bringing the gun to eye level is sighted fire. One would have to be blind to be using unsighted fire with any methodology used.
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  6. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post

    You're entitle to your opinion, others who've taken the training disagree.


    Why did you misstate FSA as being line of sight skills? Who was this TF instructor who "exposed" you to point shooting?
    Seems like “ the Lion” has turned his head multiple times to the small dog, lol.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  7. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I meant to bring this up previously and got side tracked. The sighted fire/unsighted fire debate came about by fsp trainers who believed if you weren't making use of your sights, it was unsighted fire. The distinction made by them based solely on the use of sights or lack thereof.

    TF is sighted fire just like bringing the gun to eye level is sighted fire. One would have to be blind to be using unsighted fire with any methodology used.
    Define sighted.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  8. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Seems like “ the Lion” has turned his head multiple times to the small dog, lol.
    One is forced to addressed major misstatements made as a PSA to others who, upon reading the errant information may actually cme to believe that which was not reported accurately.

    Why did you misstate FSA as being line of sight skills? Who was this TF instructor who "exposed" you to point shooting?

  9. #248
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    General rule of thumb (or so I've been instructed by one of my trainers) is the first one to get a hit usually wins the fight. Usually. Usually. First one to fire usually sends the other running/hiding. As I infer from the 2.5 million defensive uses of a firearm per year compared to the number of injuries and deaths per year from firearms, I would also say in most instances displaying, putting one's hand to the grip, and possibly drawing, is sufficient to drive off most BGs.

    That said, speed without sufficient accuracy to make a hit, any hit, is too fast. Taking ones time to get a good sight picture may be too slow. It all depends on the circumstances. Do you have the drop on the perp? As in they didn't see you at the back of the convenience store, on the next aisle at Wallyworld, etc. If time isn't critical (as in bullets aren't flying) you might have sufficient time to draw and aim well for that really nice shot.

    Summary? IMHO, go for speed without missing CM or close to it. You don't need pinpoint accuracy, but you do need to practice for speed while still hitting CM. In practice, your grouping will widen, so one needs to have reasonable accuracy in practice to have adequate accuracy in a stressful situation.
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  10. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    So if the sights are utilized, then what makes it different from sight use based system such as the MT? In using the sights, the sight and target are both in the visual.
    Point of focus is the biggest difference.
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  11. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Point of focus is the biggest difference.
    Ok,....so, in trying to swim thru these very muddy waters and narrow this thing down, are you seeing both the sights and the target, but seeing the target clearly with the front sight blurred?
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  12. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Define sighted.
    "having functional vision", exactly what the dictionary defines as "sighted".

    the confusion was started decades ago when fsp trainers writing articles would describe TF skills as "unsighted" fire. They were mistaken then, and they are mistaken now. They made the distinction between the two solely from whether one used their handgun sights or used below line of [ eye ] sight skills.
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  13. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSafety View Post
    General rule of thumb (or so I've been instructed by one of my trainers) is the first one to get a hit usually wins the fight. Usually. Usually. First one to fire usually sends the other running/hiding. As I infer from the 2.5 million defensive uses of a firearm per year compared to the number of injuries and deaths per year from firearms, I would also say in most instances displaying, putting one's hand to the grip, and possibly drawing, is sufficient to drive off most BGs.

    That said, speed without sufficient accuracy to make a hit, any hit, is too fast. Taking ones time to get a good sight picture may be too slow. It all depends on the circumstances. Do you have the drop on the perp? As in they didn't see you at the back of the convenience store, on the next aisle at Wallyworld, etc. If time isn't critical (as in bullets aren't flying) you might have sufficient time to draw and aim well for that really nice shot.

    Summary? IMHO, go for speed without missing CM or close to it. You don't need pinpoint accuracy, but you do need to practice for speed while still hitting CM. In practice, your grouping will widen, so one needs to have reasonable accuracy in practice to have adequate accuracy in a stressful situation.
    Well elucidated sir,

  14. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Ok,....so, in trying to swim thru these very muddy waters and narrow this thing down, are you seeing both the sights and the target, but seeing the target clearly with the front sight blurred?
    Yes, blurred front sight at point shoulder and beyond.

    Below point-shoulder, no, no front sight as a reference.
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  15. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSafety View Post
    General rule of thumb (or so I've been instructed by one of my trainers) is the first one to get a hit usually wins the fight. Usually. Usually. First one to fire usually sends the other running/hiding. As I infer from the 2.5 million defensive uses of a firearm per year compared to the number of injuries and deaths per year from firearms, I would also say in most instances displaying, putting one's hand to the grip, and possibly drawing, is sufficient to drive off most BGs.

    That said, speed without sufficient accuracy to make a hit, any hit, is too fast. Taking ones time to get a good sight picture may be too slow. It all depends on the circumstances. Do you have the drop on the perp? As in they didn't see you at the back of the convenience store, on the next aisle at Wallyworld, etc. If time isn't critical (as in bullets aren't flying) you might have sufficient time to draw and aim well for that really nice shot.

    Summary? IMHO, go for speed without missing CM or close to it. You don't need pinpoint accuracy, but you do need to practice for speed while still hitting CM. In practice, your grouping will widen, so one needs to have reasonable accuracy in practice to have adequate accuracy in a stressful situation.
    What's not to like?
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  16. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSafety View Post
    General rule of thumb (or so I've been instructed by one of my trainers) is the first one to get a hit usually wins the fight. Usually. Usually. First one to fire usually sends the other running/hiding. As I infer from the 2.5 million defensive uses of a firearm per year compared to the number of injuries and deaths per year from firearms, I would also say in most instances displaying, putting one's hand to the grip, and possibly drawing, is sufficient to drive off most BGs.

    That said, speed without sufficient accuracy to make a hit, any hit, is too fast. Taking ones time to get a good sight picture may be too slow. It all depends on the circumstances. Do you have the drop on the perp? As in they didn't see you at the back of the convenience store, on the next aisle at Wallyworld, etc. If time isn't critical (as in bullets aren't flying) you might have sufficient time to draw and aim well for that really nice shot.

    Summary? IMHO, go for speed without missing CM or close to it. You don't need pinpoint accuracy, but you do need to practice for speed while still hitting CM. In practice, your grouping will widen, so one needs to have reasonable accuracy in practice to have adequate accuracy in a stressful situation.
    Absolutely agree.

    I worked with a guy Saturday evening who was a point shooter, had been for most of his life and swore he was better doing it that way than aimed fire.

    However, he was not satisfied with his hits while moving. He was actually pretty good doing what he was doing, making hits on the half sized humanoid target with movement off the “x”.

    After having him him shift his focus to the front sight only, his groups were reduced to a nice tight 3 shot group within a paper plate placed on the target to reduce the target area. He was well pleased with this.

    Ya might want to call it a “ lights come on moment”.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
    -Jeff Cooper

    “ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
    -Joe Foss

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