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Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

This is a discussion on Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Bad Bob Where did your shot hit that you so gallantly fired to get his attention? Imagine you were at the Garlic ...

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Thread: Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Where did your shot hit that you so gallantly fired to get his attention? Imagine you were at the Garlic festival with people running and screaming. You cannot afford to miss.

    If they are the type to use violence to solve their problem, pointing your Roscoe at them will NOT have the effect you are hoping for. The only time I got that reaction in 40 years was on a car thief with a 12 gauge.
    To your first statement: that shot is going to hit the perp. It is simply not going to be aimed with the precision to make a surely incapacitating shot. I am not going to shoot without aiming. I am not going to endanger bystanders. I am going to aim and fire quickly wanting to simply hit the perp. Then the follow up would well aimed intending to hit an incapacitation zone.
    Having spent three days clearing buildings in Hue City I can assure you that when you shoot your adversary anywhere he is distracted for a brief time. That is the moment to get the job done.

    To your second statement: From your words I take it that you were a LEO. Since your statement reflects your experience so be it. I agree that simply pointing a pistol at someone is not going to affect the perp the way i cited. However, I wrote about shooting the perp not pointing a gun at him. Sooting at the perp has a much more significant affect on a perp than just pointing a gun at him. The only time I am going to point a gun at someone os if they are engaged in an act of lethal violence. And that pointing is going to be the moment before I fire the first shot, as described above.

    Thank you for sharing your expereinces.
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  2. #32
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    Something my dad used to say to me when he was teaching me to shoot skeet,

    The speed will come ...
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    If it is ever your misfortune to be attacked, alertness will have given you a little warning, decisiveness will have given you a proper course to pursue, and if that course is to counterattack, carry it out with everything you've got! Be indignant. Be angry. Be aggressive.

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    That changes the topic from the one Gman posed. He stated that he shoots the 1911 more accurately than the Glocks, hence the conundrum.
    Its still a related topic, carry AIWB versus strong side IWB - I removed one variable but kept a conundrum.
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    I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
    "Wouldn't want to or Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

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  5. #34
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Speed of presentation vs accuracy: What is the most important to you

    Both, and practice for both. Time and distance will dictate how much of either tips the balancing point.

    But defining accuracy seems critical during these discussions. I'm of the mindset that combat accuracy is the goal in most DGU's, while in some instances, more accuracy may be called for based on distance, amount of threat exposed etc.

    Having both command of extreme accuracy and adequate speed [ both at the higher ends of the equation of time/distance ] should be the goal. I have abs brakes on the bike, but I've only used the system once in two years and 20K miles on that motor. Nice to have it when you need it, though it's not needed the majority of time. Same with speed and accuracy, nice to have when needed, but not something either is going to be necessary all the time.

    I decide how much accuracy I need. I decide how much time I need based on variables. Those two decisions dictate how much I hit the gas and whether I go two handed, line of sight or stay one handed from the holster and shoot from somewhere below line of sight.

    In my own world, speed played the more important role, COM hits were enough accuracy to end the imminent threat/s. Fortunately, I had developed the speed I had, which was very unfortunate for the turds involved. I prefer to have command of both and can better determine which one plays a more important role "on the fly" and make use of either or as the situation dictates

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
    Its still a related topic, carry AIWB versus strong side IWB - I removed one variable but kept a conundrum.
    There was a time that inserting "Glock 19!!!" into any thread was a sure-fire way to get a few likes. That time has passed.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

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  7. #36
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    Both/either or depending on the need. I consider accuracy of higher importance, all around. No matter how fast I get into the fight doesn't matter if I am missing.

    I get my reps in from concealment also, but more than anything I want to hit what I need to with precision, aimed fire.
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    Once I decided what *my* most likely self defense scenario is, I made a choice for a snubby as my primary carry, with a pocket 9 as backup. I believe my most likely scenario is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have things suddenly go south very close by. I don't generally go out at night or park in mall parking lots or go to places with large numbers of people. In fact, I hardly go out at all any more, except for walks in wide open fields.

    So I want the simplest weapon possible - draw, aim and shoot.

    This is why Mr. Snubby and I are such good companions.
    Gun Toting Fire Breathing Liberal

  9. #38
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    It was very nice to hear the different viewpoints from you guys, thanks for participating.
    @Mike1956, it’s not really a conundrum for me, I will continue to use all my options and guns, what I was more interested in was hearing the opinions of others.

    I also agree that timers are irrelevant in a fight, but I believe time can be a factor, which is dependent upon other things which really compound the issue. I simply listed my times, which are the average of a “ cold start”, which I believe is more realistic than putting your fastest time during a practice session.
    @Bad Bob, I agree with your take on speed. In my experience, the speed of the draw and shot cannot be counted on because of the sudden and unexpected nature of real life. In a perfect world, the opponent would be standing directly to my front and give me hint of his intentions. Can’t count on that in the street where it can come from any direction, angle, time or place. Really the only variables we can control are accuracy and resolve.
    @matthew03 , agree. Ya got to hit the stop button as quick as possible, and that takes good shot placement.
    @AzQkr, my definition of accuracy would be all shots fired could be covered with ones hand from a distance of 3-10 yards , one or two handed, depending on time and distance.

    Thanks to to all who responded with your idea of what you value and why.

    As a baseline for gauging myself, I like the 5-5-10 drill, as well as shooting with real movement, from the position of retention to breaking contact and firing three shots, with no time limit needed if you are moving with a sense of urgency.

    Please keep sharing your thoughts, opinions, and you personal practice regimen that helps you.
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    There was a time that inserting "Glock 19!!!" into any thread was a sure-fire way to get a few likes. That time has passed.
    Dude! It hasn't been all that long ago that you had me laughing because you posted that.
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    Appalachian Concealment


    I don't train to fight some street urchin, I train to fight the evil version of myself, and that person scares me, because I know the time I put into my training on how to beat him.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    To your first statement: that shot is going to hit the perp. It is simply not going to be aimed with the precision to make a surely incapacitating shot. I am not going to shoot without aiming. I am not going to endanger bystanders. I am going to aim and fire quickly wanting to simply hit the perp. Then the follow up would well aimed intending to hit an incapacitation zone.
    Having spent three days clearing buildings in Hue City I can assure you that when you shoot your adversary anywhere he is distracted for a brief time. That is the moment to get the job done.

    To your second statement: From your words I take it that you were a LEO. Since your statement reflects your experience so be it. I agree that simply pointing a pistol at someone is not going to affect the perp the way i cited. However, I wrote about shooting the perp not pointing a gun at him. Sooting at the perp has a much more significant affect on a perp than just pointing a gun at him. The only time I am going to point a gun at someone os if they are engaged in an act of lethal violence. And that pointing is going to be the moment before I fire the first shot, as described above.

    Thank you for sharing your expereinces.
    I was an MP in the Army and a civilian cop for decades. Unlike at war, misses and collateral damage has consequences. Your original statement made it seem as though your first shot was reckless. I am going to use the same precision for all my shots.
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  12. #41
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    I simply listed my times, which are the average of a “ cold start”, which I believe is more realistic than putting your fastest time during a practice session.

    Cold start demonstrated 1.3 seconds, 3rd attempt saw 1.1 seconds for two BG hit. I'd guess the average for all seven draw and fires was 1.3 seconds. I could go faster, but would lose some reliability to make hits. I only went fast enough to make solid COM hits [ that time/distance equation I mentioned previously. My average cold shot from strong side under a T hangs at just 1 second to first shot or a few thousandths less.

    Given a target at 7 yrds in the open, the times will extend a few thousandths as I come to just below or line of sight for the same COM shots. The timer only helps establish base times, and document improvements as proprioception is further developed.

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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthew03 View Post
    Dude! It hasn't been all that long ago that you had me laughing because you posted that.
    There was a time...
    matthew03 likes this.
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    There was a time that inserting "Glock 19!!!" into any thread was a sure-fire way to get a few likes. That time has passed.
    I mistakenly thought a Glock 19 was mentioned in the OP, rereading clarifys that OP just said Glock. My bad.
    I was not trying to get likes, I thought my reply relevant, apparently (obviously) it wasn't.
    I'll delete the post, no desire to derail this thread.
    Bad Bob and matthew03 like this.
    I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
    "Wouldn't want to or Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

  15. #44
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    I feel like speed can be defeated by movement, but accuracy is critical whether you are moving or standing still.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by high pockets View Post
    I feel like speed can be defeated by movement, but accuracy is critical whether you are moving or standing still.
    accuracy is defeated by movement equally as well.
    Bad Bob and matthew03 like this.

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