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Do active shooter incident like El Paso make you reconsider your CCW choices?

This is a discussion on Do active shooter incident like El Paso make you reconsider your CCW choices? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 I do better with the shorter sight radius at distance than with the longer slides. Thatís very interesting, Mike. Iíve heard ...

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Thread: Do active shooter incident like El Paso make you reconsider your CCW choices?

  1. #121
    Senior Member Array mhl6493's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I do better with the shorter sight radius at distance than with the longer slides.
    Thatís very interesting, Mike. Iíve heard others say this as well. What do you attribute it to?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhl6493 View Post
    Thatís very interesting, Mike. Iíve heard others say this as well. What do you attribute it to?
    The longer the sight radius on a handgun, the greater the adverse effect on accuracy from errors in sight alignment. I know that seems counter-intuitive, but it has been my experience, at least in my own shooting.
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  3. #123
    Distinguished Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    I am seeing this very thread discussion on multiple forums and this topic comes up commonly after similar events or threats. Heck, there were similar discussions about people thinking they needed to change their carry guns after 9/11, I guess so that they could defend against hijacked planes. I have no idea how skyjacked airliners would figure into their EDC defense plans, but apparently people thought they needed to change.

    All I can figure out is that far too many people pigeon-hole their protection into a minimal standard, figuring on such common themes as "3 shots, 3 feet, 3 seconds." I am betting that when (if) those folks practice, they are also practicing to the absolute minimalist standard as well.

    Here are my thoughts. If you think you may need to change your EDC because of events such as this, then you probably made a poor EDC decision in the first place and have been deluding yourself for at least any amount of time that you have been carrying for the last 20 years (at least). If you do decide to change your EDC because of these events, then you need to change your training to match as well. Simply buying a bigger gun or higher capacity doesn't significantly improve your ability to handle such events than buying better shoes makes you more qualified to play in the Super Bowl.

    Then again, what are the chances you are going to be in a mass shooting, right?

    Are you skilled with your EDC right now or are you pie plate at 3 yards functional? Are you one of those people that carries a "meant to be carried a lot but shot a little" guns that you don't practice with because you aren't supposed to shoot it very much? Your skill level may not match the fight you think changing your EDC is going to prepare you for.

    If you are truly skilled with your EDC, shoot it regularly, do drills, then it will probably be able to handle your needs should you be involved in a mass shooting. You still may be lacking on appropriate training to deal with the situation, but the gun isn't going to be your problem. If you are only a pie plate functional kind of person, you really need to up your game considerably before thinking a change in your EDC is going to be what makes a difference in a mass shooting. Those who practice with their EDC, regardless of its size or capacity, can do things with them that others would think are well beyond the scope of the gun. Know your weapon, what it can do, and what you can do with it.

    Note: I used to RSO for CHL classes in Texas and got to watch plenty of people who were pie plate functional at 3 yards who could not hit a human silhouette at 15 yards. Almost all managed to qualify, even if they didn't actually have all 50 holes in the target. Now imagine one of those people engaging the shooter in Walmart from 5 aisles away and wondering how many of their shots will hit the moving shooter and how many will hit fleeing people behind the shooter. I am not putting anybody down. We could all stand to improve our skill levels regardless of how good we are, but most guns people carry for self defense are not shot by their owners to the precision that the guns can attain. That is all that I am saying.
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  5. #124
    VIP Member Array forester58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    I am seeing this very thread discussion on multiple forums and this topic comes up commonly after similar events or threats. Heck, there were similar discussions about people thinking they needed to change their carry guns after 9/11, I guess so that they could defend against hijacked planes. I have no idea how skyjacked airliners would figure into their EDC defense plans, but apparently people thought they needed to change.

    All I can figure out is that far too many people pigeon-hole their protection into a minimal standard, figuring on such common themes as "3 shots, 3 feet, 3 seconds." I am betting that when (if) those folks practice, they are also practicing to the absolute minimalist standard as well.

    Here are my thoughts. If you think you may need to change your EDC because of events such as this, then you probably made a poor EDC decision in the first place and have been deluding yourself for at least any amount of time that you have been carrying for the last 20 years (at least). If you do decide to change your EDC because of these events, then you need to change your training to match as well. Simply buying a bigger gun or higher capacity doesn't significantly improve your ability to handle such events than buying better shoes makes you more qualified to play in the Super Bowl.

    Then again, what are the chances you are going to be in a mass shooting, right?

    Are you skilled with your EDC right now or are you pie plate at 3 yards functional? Are you one of those people that carries a "meant to be carried a lot but shot a little" guns that you don't practice with because you aren't supposed to shoot it very much? Your skill level may not match the fight you think changing your EDC is going to prepare you for.

    If you are truly skilled with your EDC, shoot it regularly, do drills, then it will probably be able to handle your needs should you be involved in a mass shooting. You still may be lacking on appropriate training to deal with the situation, but the gun isn't going to be your problem. If you are only a pie plate functional kind of person, you really need to up your game considerably before thinking a change in your EDC is going to be what makes a difference in a mass shooting. Those who practice with their EDC, regardless of its size or capacity, can do things with them that others would think are well beyond the scope of the gun. Know your weapon, what it can do, and what you can do with it.

    Note: I used to RSO for CHL classes in Texas and got to watch plenty of people who were pie plate functional at 3 yards who could not hit a human silhouette at 15 yards. Almost all managed to qualify, even if they didn't actually have all 50 holes in the target. Now imagine one of those people engaging the shooter in Walmart from 5 aisles away and wondering how many of their shots will hit the moving shooter and how many will hit fleeing people behind the shooter. I am not putting anybody down. We could all stand to improve our skill levels regardless of how good we are, but most guns people carry for self defense are not shot by their owners to the precision that the guns can attain. That is all that I am saying.
    Good post. No matter what you have decided to carry I believe we should push our training/practice out as far as we can. I practice with pocket guns out to 25 yards and compacts and larger out to 50 which at least lets me know what I may or may not be capable of at distance. Yes, I could stand to improve my skills too.
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  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by forester58 View Post
    Good post. No matter what you have decided to carry I believe we should push our training/practice out as far as we can. I practice with pocket guns out to 25 yards and compacts and larger out to 50 which at least lets me know what I may or may not be capable of at distance. Yes, I could stand to improve my skills too.
    Knowing your capabilities is good. Not only that, it may prompt you to improve.

    I never practice distance shooting with my .380s, but Gman's vid prompted me to do so last night. Even at thirty yards, my Kahr hits point of aim. Effectively maintaining that point of aim through the firing process will require some more practice for me to achieve consistency, but nothing that can't be done, and worthwhile, IMO.
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  7. #126
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    but most guns people carry for self defense are not shot by their owners to the precision that the guns can attain

    Unless you're a ransom rest, all guns are intrinsically more accurate than humanly possible.
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  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The longer the sight radius on a handgun, the greater the adverse effect on accuracy from errors in sight alignment. I know that seems counter-intuitive, but it has been my experience, at least in my own shooting.
    I may be wrong Mike, but after thinking about this, and other threads with similar subject matter, it occurred to me, that once you start to attain certain levels where your experience, familiarity, and fundamentals all kind of come together, the things that made huge differences at one time, really donít matter as much.
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  9. #128
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    The chance of being caught up in a "mass shooting event" (Whatever that means any more), is almost non-existent. I feel I have done something safer by just coming inside out of a lightening storm. With that said, I am sure those folks thought the same thing. I will continue to carry my 1911 regardless and deal with the situation should it arise. I am in no hurry to engage a rifle with any handgun no matter the capacity. I will if I have to but I do have my preferences....
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  10. #129
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    I've gone through all sorts of Carry pieces on my CCW journey. From a tiny Kahr PM9 to a full size XDM 10mm. I've learned over the years that I can actually effectively conceal anything with a good belt and holster, but comfort is a major factor.

    The most comfortable carry gun I have is my P365. I DO feel that this is an effective carry piece as the overwhelming majority of deadly force encounters would have the badguy fleeing after meeting with any armed resistance.

    In a case like El Paso, the odds of being in the position to take an effective shot against a mass shooter are very very slim and also very dangerous. In such a situation, not only do you have the mass shooter to worry about but also other CCWers or Cops who might see your CCW and assume you are involved. ALL of these events always start with reports of "multiple" shooters, which speaks to the fog of war effect. Furthermore, even if I were in the right position at the right time with no risk of getting popped by fellow good guy, there will likely be people running every which way, making a safe shot nearly impossible to take.

    Anyway, the odds of engaging in such a situation are very very slim. However, I will admit that IF I were cornered and had no choice but to defend myself in such a situation... I'd prefer to have a full-sized or Glock 19 sized pistol, one I'm comfortable with shooting quickly and accurately at distances greater than the usual self defense distance. Will I change my carry pistol? No. As others have stated here, the odds of being at a location where something like this happens are astronomically slim. Even slimmer are the odd of being in the position to take a shot.
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  11. #130
    Distinguished Member Array Militant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavygravy View Post
    ^^ "The most salient take away related to this thread is that two people in the report who normally carry chose not to carry at that time. They were "just going to Walmart."
    I've NEVER understood this mindset to be humbly honest. Never! The whole "purpose" of having a concealed carry permit (or open carry w/o permit etc.) in my book is to CARRY A GUN! I don't care if I'm making a "quick" run to Wal-Mart or some other grocery or department store, walking with my wife through our neighbourhood, going to the park, riding bikes, the movies, a restaurant, bowling, out to lunch or dinner or even to church; I ALWAY CARRY MY GUN....ALWAYS!!!

    I live by the "ABC's" meaning; Always Be Carrying!
    When it comes to defending and protecting my life, I'M THE FIRST RESPONDER!
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  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Militant View Post
    I've NEVER understood this mindset to be humbly honest. Never! The whole "purpose" of having a concealed carry permit (or open carry w/o permit etc.) in my book is to CARRY A GUN! I don't carry if I'm making a "quick" run to Wal-Mart, walking with my wife through our neighbourhood, going to the park, the movies, a restaurant, bowling, out to lunch or dinner or even to church; I ALWAY CARRY MY GUN....ALWAYS!!! I live by the "ABC's" meaning; Always Be Carrying!
    admittedly, there have been times I didnít carry, but it was running errands around my small rural town. I went to Loweís this weekend to pick up some Lag Bolts and wood screws, and because I had been working, just jumped in the car, and picked them up without thinking about it.

    However, I primarily follow your rule of thumb. Carry is not just something you do every once in a while, itís something that is a lifestyle. I think itís a safe assessment to say that the members here on this forum are all lifestyle carriers.

    But it I think itís also safe to say we are in a minority of that group as a whole.
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  13. #132
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    Active shooter incidents, along with terror attacks, prompted me to quit carrying a J frame, and move to a minimum of a Beretta Nano with an 8 rd magazine in gun and two more 8 rd mags on the belt. Minimum.
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  14. #133
    Distinguished Member Array Militant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    admittedly, there have been times I didnít carry, but it was running errands around my small rural town. I went to Loweís this weekend to pick up some Lag Bolts and wood screws, and because I had been working, just jumped in the car, and picked them up without thinking about it.

    However, I primarily follow your rule of thumb. Carry is not just something you do every once in a while, itís something that is a lifestyle. I think itís a safe assessment to say that the members here on this forum are all lifestyle carriers.

    But it I think itís also safe to say we are in a minority of that group as a whole.
    That's it right there! Conceal carry is a lifestyle! One that I, personally take seriously for reasons such as being played out in my area of Virginia Beach and now, El Paso and Dayton. The reality (as we know) is that WE NEVER KNOW when or where these types of things will jump off! And to not have my piece on me is not an option whatsoever! It never has been but definitely not anymore!

    That was driven home to me even louder and clearer when I saw this footage of people in the Wal-Mart in El Paso hiding under benches or something while shots are being fired with nothing to fight back and defend their lives with. Nothing but waiting, hoping and wishing and praying that the bad guy wouldn't come in there and start firing:
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  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Militant View Post
    That's it right there! Conceal carry is a lifestyle! One that I, personally take seriously for reasons such as being played out in my area of Virginia Beach and now, El Paso and Dayton. The reality (as we know) is that WE NEVER KNOW when or where these types of things will jump off! And to not have my piece on me is not an option whatsoever! It never has been but definitely not anymore!

    That was driven home to me even louder and clearer when I saw this footage of people in the Wal-Mart in El Paso hiding under benches or something while shots are being fired with nothing to fight back and defend their lives with. Nothing but waiting, hoping and wishing and praying that the bad guy wouldn't come in there and start firing:
    Most Walmarts are loaded with stuff to fight back with, which may not be guns, but there is plenty to fight back with. Either you have the fight mentality or you don't.

    With that said, one of the surest ways to get the shooter to engage you is to engage the shooter without incapacitating the shooter. People like Mark Wilson in Tyler, Texas have learned this the hard way. Byron Wilson in Houston actually drew his gun and was cut down by the shooter before he was able to fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wavygravy View Post
    ^^ "The most salient take away related to this thread is that two people in the report who normally carry chose not to carry at that time. They were "just going to Walmart."

    Yep. I saw an interview with a military member (off-duty) who was in the Wal-Mart and said the same. He said that he'd be carrying all the time now.
    And what are the chances he will be in another mass shooting? It is stupid to carry a gun out of fear you will be in a mass shooting. If you are going to suffer violence due to criminal activity, it is hugely more likely it will be because of robbery, rape, or interpersonal anger than getting caught up in a mass shooting. If you are going to be shot by somebody, also realize that there is a high probability that the person will be known to you, quite possibly even a family member. That is just reality.
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  16. #135
    Distinguished Member Array Militant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    Most Walmarts are loaded with stuff to fight back with, which may not be guns, but there is plenty to fight back with. Either you have the fight mentality or you don't.

    With that said, one of the surest ways to get the shooter to engage you is to engage the shooter without incapacitating the shooter. People like Mark Wilson in Tyler, Texas have learned this the hard way. Byron Wilson in Houston actually drew his gun and was cut down by the shooter before he was able to fire.



    And what are the chances he will be in another mass shooting? It is stupid to carry a gun out of fear you will be in a mass shooting. If you are going to suffer violence due to criminal activity, it is hugely more likely it will be because of robbery, rape, or interpersonal anger than getting caught up in a mass shooting. If you are going to be shot by somebody, also realize that there is a high probability that the person will be known to you, quite possibly even a family member. That is just reality.
    All things being equal...of course, they are! So, I agree with you there. But, the harsh reality is where in this footage do you see people "fighting back" with items they were able to grab off of shelves or laying nearby etc? And, which items do you grab to fight back with against someone who has surprisingly come into the store with the evil intent to kill as many people as quickly as possible with rifles? Now, the cat that threw bottles at the shooter in El Paso, to distract him survived but he was shot twice in the process. Grateful that it wasn't fatal. But it could have been! For me; my gun will ALWAYS be with me regardless!
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