An often missed point about the Glock grip angle
This is a discussion on An often missed point about the Glock grip angle within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Or at least, one that I have never heard mentioned.
Most often the complaint is that the angle of the grip causes shots to go ...
An often missed point about the Glock grip angle
Or at least, one that I have never heard mentioned.
Most often the complaint is that the angle of the grip causes shots to go high, because the angle projects the muzzle higher on presentation to the target, so that to correct this, the wrist must be adjusted downward to level the slide and bring the front sight down to align with the rear sights.
While I understand and agree that this is true, I do not agree that this is a problem for the intended use of the firearm, and here is why;
When shooting for defensive purposes, that is , relatively close and fast, the Glock grip angle is actually an aide in quick front sight acquisition, because it naturally brings the front sight up, high enough for an uncluttered focus, that is, that it negates the need to sort thru the back sights to concentrate on the front sight when quick fire methods are used. By quick fire methods, I am referring to any genre of fire where perfect sight alignment is not feasible or necessary, or, a detriment to the intended goal.
The Glock grip angle projects the front sight in a way that is similar in theory and use to a red dot sight, in that it presents the shooter with the need for sight alignment, and allows for an uncluttered, single plane of focus.
While there is is nothing wrong with “ ergonomics “ such as one feels with the grip angles of the 1911, BHP, and other pistols that strive for a grip that feels natural in the hand and brings the rear and front sight in to natural alignment, I feel that the gripe about the Glock grip angle comes from a target shooters perspective instead of a gun fighters perspective.
After many years of various professional training, as I push deeper in to what is relevant and what is not, I find that all that glitters ain’t gold.
This has lead to the epiphany that the “ market “ and industry idea that things like comfort, ergos, and other such “ improvements “ over the Glock are actually throw backs to the concept of target shooting, and actually a detriment to the realistic application of defensive shooting.
I also find this to be true of revolvers, especially single actions with plow handle grips.
All one has to do to prove this is quickly grab a handful of grip, draw and quickly project it out in front of you to prove this, as you will find the muzzle slightly high with the front sight standing proudly in an uncluttered and clear in your focus.
In conclusion, and contrary to popular ideologies of the day, I find that the Glock grip angle is actually one of the strong points of the design for CQB and defensive style shooting where it counts. And at CQB distances, the poi difference is not enough to be of any significance.
" Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
“ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
FWIW the grip angle to me is only a factor in competition. And that can be overcome with practice. Which interestingly enough most competitors do frequently.
For CCW Glocks the grip angle doesn't bother me, I like the reliability and simplicity, stock triggers seem to give me issues on pre gen 4's (usually just need to smooth up the safety lever) gen 4's and newer do work better as their grip allows me to get my short fingers completely on the trigger BUT I like a thumb safety on a carry gun. But that's just my own little issue.
I have both a G19 and a S&W M&P 45 2.0 w/thumb safety. I like both, shoot both well and am comfortable with the ammo for each. I tend to carry the M&P though 90% of the time and when I don't I like to carry my S&W 325 TR more than the G19. But I compete regularly with a pair of G34's (a Gen 3 and a Gen 4 MOS). Go figure?
I dislike Glocks, but the grip angle has nothing to do with the reasons for my lack regard for the pistol. A good afternoon session with a Glock at the range ought to banish any notions that it cannot be used effectively. If it continues to matter afterward then an honest examination must turn inward, to what is between one's ears.
I'm a fan of CZ 75s. On an occasion I ran an informal fun test all afternoon, pitting the CZ 75BD against the Glock 17 kept here. I like the CZ better for my purposes, but the Glock is fully capable.
CZ target on left. Glock Target on right. Can't recall distance, but was probably 10 yards. Rapid fire, faster than I generally like to shoot.
The Glock grip angle is remarkably similar to that of another famous 9mm pistol. In fact it was the first handgun design ever chambered for 9mm. There was no hue and cry about its grip angle except by quibbling nitpickers. It was generally valued as well-balanced and "point-able" in its day.
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“No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”
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I shoot them well and like you said for a flash sight picture and fire it works well, I have a thing for shooting small pretty groups and although I can do it with the G23 I have to make that fore mentioned downward adjustment not a deal breaker for me though I plan on getting aother G23 either today or tomorrow
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I don't know about all that grip angle stuff, or even that low/high bore axis stuff. I do know that GLOCKs are ugly and they don't feel real great in my hands. I also know that they carry well, I can't make 'em malfunction, I can hit a nat's a$$ at 25 yards with 'em and neither me or my guys/gals (many of who are not very gun savvy) can tear 'em up.
I love 1911's, BHP's and Smith K frames. But, I carry GLOCKs every day. I'm particularly diggin' my G26 and G30 these days.
“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”
The grip angle is neither "better" nor "worse." It's just "different." I do not own a Glock, and neither did my son, until he entered law enforcement and was required to carry one. At that point, we agreed he needed to master it, and he shoots Glocks pretty much exclusively, now. Extensive use has "trained" his grip to accommodate the Glock grip angle.
I've fired 1911s, BHPs and DA revolvers for more than 45 years. All these (and my new-fangled Springfield XDs) share a common wrist/hand angle for me. I would have to re-learn my grip to use a Glock, and see no need to do so. I am perfectly content using my old and trusted tools.
If I were a youngster entering the shooting world today, I might very well go the Glock route. The shooter must acclimate himself to the firearm, whatever that firearm may be.
While I am not a Glock fan it is because I just prefer the ergonomics of Walther and M&P pistols. But that is a Feel not an Efficiency preference. I do not care what pistol you draw from any preferred method of carry you will have to make an adjustment of arm or wrist to get the front sight on aim point. That could be different in ever situation you might experience. Consider that drawing from a seated position, standing, reclining, moving position is going to be affected by your personal physiology. You ca not automate sight alignment on a draw except maybe at the range. Your human target can move. That changes everything.
Glocks are damn good guns with proven reliability. I do not carry one because I prefer the feel in hand od other guns. Will that make a difference in a firefight? I doubt it. But it is nicer during the hours of practice at the range. So I find Walther ergos to be best, but in a do or die situation I would not give a rat's ass about ergonomics.
USMC 9/59 through 9/69
Vietnam June ‘66 to February ‘68
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Bryan, glad to see you're enjoying that CZ75! CZs are starting to multiply around here, with 2 rimfire rifles and recently a second CZ pistol.
To G-man's point, I think much has been made of the Glock grip angle, but even as a long-time 1911 shooter I can pick up my G23 and get quick, effective his on target. It's a difference, to be sure, but rather a non-issue in my mind.
I think Bryan's target exercise would be fun to repeat for those who have a Glock and another similarly-sized pistol of a different make or design. Load up 8-10 rounds in each, and on signal from holster (or low ready) draw and shoot to slide lock, in 5 seconds max. Target and distance aren't critical; paper plates or a silhouette target and 10-15 yards would be fine, they just need to be the same for both. This isn't a marksmanship test, it's to show any difference in how you, the shooter, accommodate different grip angles in a practical drill.
I'd run out and do that today but for the fact the public lands are off limits for shooting, due to the extreme fire restrictions we've been under all summer.
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You can explain the Grip angle on the Glock all you want. Can't shoot one well, don't want to relearn all my mechanics, and don't and won't own one.
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Most of the complaints I have heard/read and have actually experienced with right hand shooters new to the Glock is shooting low and to the left. Once they master the trigger and obtain a really good hold on the gun, their shots improve considerably. I have owned a lot of Glocks over the years and still own five (or is it six?). Of these the one I tend to shoot best is my gen3 G23, which I purchased in March, 2007. For some reason that gun just works for me. The others are fine and I would use any one of them in my defense, but that gen3 G23 is a forever keeper.
In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?
To each his own.
There are a lot of reasons to like a Glock, durability and ease of take-down/cleaning are high on that list. I personally don't like shooting them though because of the grip angle. Two wrist injuries over the years have made pointing and shooting a Glock a little more difficult for me ...... but that's just me.
My goto EDC will continue to be the HK
Retired USAF E9
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1 Thess. 5:16-18
glockman10mm...l agree...and for defensive shooting, shots high in the thoracic region are more effective as that is somewhat "nerve central" for the body, anyway...so, a little high is probably to the defensive shooter's advantage.
However, that grip angle is the reason that I don't shoot Glocks...I get tired of pulling that muzzle down to shoot accurately.
“The everyday man who holsters a handgun for come-what-may eventualities cannot improve on a .44 Special revolver.” Skeeter Skelton
I've had a Glock 17 since 1993. I thought it was fantastic. Extremely accurate. I never knew there was a problem with the Glock grip angle until I joined several gun forums about 6 years ago. :) Now that I shoot mostly S&W M&P pistols, I do notice a difference but I can adjust for it when going back to the Glock.
You know what I hate about Glocks? The constant whining. Too many "shooters" seem to be one-trick ponies, I mean shooters.
I understand the difference between good and bad, and different. There's nothing "bad" about a ten-pound double-action trigger, it's just different from a 4.5-pound 1911 SA trigger. I don't know if the Glock grip angle is good or bad, it's just different to me and I adjust accordingly. I shoot it no better or worse than my S&W 3rd Gen pistols.
I'd rather be average with any handgun I pick up than a one-hole wonder with one and only one pistol, regardless of make, model, trigger, or grip angle.
But that's just me, I could be wrong.
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