Duty weapon Utopia !! - Page 3

Duty weapon Utopia !!

This is a discussion on Duty weapon Utopia !! within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Bigsteve113 Hahahaha... I hope Beto takes that as an open invitation to come and take it !!! Only if it's an AR-G30....

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsteve113 View Post
    Hahahaha... I hope Beto takes that as an open invitation to come and take it !!!
    Only if it's an AR-G30.
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  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array CavemanBob's Avatar
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    My regular winter carry is my G29. It's amazing how accurate that thing is, I think it's more accurate than my G20s. I'd imagine that shooting the G30 is quite similar, being of the same form factor, but I've never shot a G30 so don't actually know.
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  3. #33
    Member Array Big Western's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsteve113 View Post
    Now, what happens when you put a WML on a GLOCK .40 is this: The GLOCK requires a certain amount of flex in the frame to function reliably. Evidently, the .40 requires more flex than most. When you add a WML you are making the frame much more rigid, essentially eliminating the frameís ability to flex under recoil. That rigidity is what causes the malfunction. Usually a nose down FTF malfunction at about mid magazine.

    The 9mm and .45 GLOCKs do NOT experience this. They are 100% with or without WMLís. I have not tested or studied the .357 SIG or 10mm GLOCKs, but I have not heard of the problem existing with them.

    I agree with most of what you're saying, especially about the trigger safety. And it sounds like you have a pretty good idea of the most common stoppage you guys have seen.

    I'm surprised you say that Glocks need to flex in order to function reliably, because that seems counter intuitive. Wouldn't it be more logical that the problem is ultimately the gen4 and older Glocks flex a bit too much because of their lighter weight, but that it's only an issue with the recoil impulse of the 40cal when equipped with WML, and never an issue with 9mm and 357sig because of their less energetic recoil impulses? Those three calibers share the same footprint, but the 45acp and 10mm each have their own beefier, stiffer designs. And we know the gen 5 glocks have a stiffer lower with more polymer around the "business" center.

    I think what actually happens is the combination of the 40cal recoil impulse, when combined with the frame "pinching" of a WML, causes the not quite stiff enough 40 cal Glocks to suffer a negative change in flex PATTERN that results in many light equipped 40 cal glocks having stoppages. it would make sense that manufacturing tolerances play a role in the equation, too, and that might be why you aren't seeing it on ALL 40s with wmls. Another factor that I feel supports this is that glocks have always been slightly more prone to limp wristing, and "shooting a bit low/high/left/right" due to grip techniques that induce a lot of side loading on the lower. I think it was Jerry Jones who wrote about Glocks being vulnerable to side loading.

    I'd bet money that if Glock had given the 40cal its own slightly larger design versus the 9mm and 357sig, like they did for the 45acp and 10mm, the problem wouldn't exist.

    It's interesting that other striker fired 40cal service pistols don't have that issue with WMLs- but most if not all of them are slightly heavier and less flexy than glocks.

    Discussions like this are always fun and informative.

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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cal44 View Post
    As an ordinary citizen (non LEO), given I live in a low crime suburb, I think 9mm is plenty. In fact, I often carry a 38 sp snub revolver.

    But I recently acquired my first Glock -- a 27 gen 4.

    There is something reassuring about the bigger caliber.
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Bigsteve113's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Western View Post
    I agree with most of what you're saying, especially about the trigger safety. And it sounds like you have a pretty good idea of the most common stoppage you guys have seen.

    I'm surprised you say that Glocks need to flex in order to function reliably, because that seems counter intuitive. Wouldn't it be more logical that the problem is ultimately the gen4 and older Glocks flex a bit too much because of their lighter weight, but that it's only an issue with the recoil impulse of the 40cal when equipped with WML, and never an issue with 9mm and 357sig because of their less energetic recoil impulses? Those three calibers share the same footprint, but the 45acp and 10mm each have their own beefier, stiffer designs. And we know the gen 5 glocks have a stiffer lower with more polymer around the "business" center.

    I think what actually happens is the combination of the 40cal recoil impulse, when combined with the frame "pinching" of a WML, causes the not quite stiff enough 40 cal Glocks to suffer a negative change in flex PATTERN that results in many light equipped 40 cal glocks having stoppages. it would make sense that manufacturing tolerances play a role in the equation, too, and that might be why you aren't seeing it on ALL 40s with wmls. Another factor that I feel supports this is that glocks have always been slightly more prone to limp wristing, and "shooting a bit low/high/left/right" due to grip techniques that induce a lot of side loading on the lower. I think it was Jerry Jones who wrote about Glocks being vulnerable to side loading.

    I'd bet money that if Glock had given the 40cal its own slightly larger design versus the 9mm and 357sig, like they did for the 45acp and 10mm, the problem wouldn't exist.

    It's interesting that other striker fired 40cal service pistols don't have that issue with WMLs- but most if not all of them are slightly heavier and less flexy than glocks.

    Discussions like this are always fun and informative.
    You are correct. As far as the flexing of the frame, itís actually more dramatic than you would think. Iíve linked a video of it, and this video is a 9mm, so you can imagine how much more violent the flexing of a .40 would be.

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  7. #36
    Member Array oldbadger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsteve113 View Post
    Yes we have had a few NDís. We had a few when we carried DA revolvers too. But I will be the first to admit that striker-fired guns are much more unforgiving to inattentiveness than say DA/SA or true DAO guns. Either way, I must also admit that we donít have an excessive amount of NDís with the GLOCKs. If we did I would have had us go to another platform long ago. And BTW, the ďtrigger safetyĒ is merely a drop safety. It offers no protection against a pull of the trigger or something snagging the trigger and depressing it.

    Now, what happens when you put a WML on a GLOCK .40 is this: The GLOCK requires a certain amount of flex in the frame to function reliably. Evidently, the .40 requires more flex than most. When you add a WML you are making the frame much more rigid, essentially eliminating the frameís ability to flex under recoil. That rigidity is what causes the malfunction. Usually a nose down FTF malfunction at about mid magazine.

    The 9mm and .45 GLOCKs do NOT experience this. They are 100% with or without WMLís. I have not tested or studied the .357 SIG or 10mm GLOCKs, but I have not heard of the problem existing with them.
    Thank you for your response. This answers my question. Interesting.
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  8. #37
    Member Array Big Western's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsteve113 View Post
    You are correct. As far as the flexing of the frame, itís actually more dramatic than you would think. Iíve linked a video of it, and this video is a 9mm, so you can imagine how much more violent the flexing of a .40 would be.

    Great video- thanks for posting! Reminds me how innovative our Glocks were when introduced.
    Last edited by Big Western; October 24th, 2019 at 10:22 PM.
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  9. #38
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    The slide doesn't need beefing up, the frame does. S&W and others have a more rigid frame. Specifically, they tie the front and rear frame rails together with steel, so the frame doesn't flex as much under recoil. Glocks are designed to flex under recoil, the .40's more than the 9s. But something on the frame rails screws with this. If they made a steel chassis between the front and rear rails, and designed the gun to work with that, it would probably solve the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsteve113 View Post
    You are correct. And as far as Iím concerned itís GLOCKís only flaw. And honestly I really believe that it is the reason that for the last few years the GLOCK reps have been pushing the 9mm so hard. And you are also correct that S&W doesnít seem to have the problem with their .40ís. In fact, I know of no other brand that does.

    Actually though, if you had to beef up the .40 slide too much, you really lose the advantage of the .40. Which is, .40 power in a 9mm sized package. If I have to go larger fame, Iím going .45 every time. In fact, thatís exactly what I did.
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Bigsteve113's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    The slide doesn't need beefing up, the frame does. S&W and others have a more rigid frame. Specifically, they tie the front and rear frame rails together with steel, so the frame doesn't flex as much under recoil. Glocks are designed to flex under recoil, the .40's more than the 9s. But something on the frame rails screws with this. If they made a steel chassis between the front and rear rails, and designed the gun to work with that, it would probably solve the problem.

    You are 100% correct. I was certainly thinking frame but I obviously typed slide. This phenomenon is definitely a frame issue and not a slide issue. Thank you for catching that !
    Last edited by Bigsteve113; October 24th, 2019 at 10:36 PM.
    ďOut of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.Ē

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