Trade off between speed of presentation and ammo capacity - Page 6

Trade off between speed of presentation and ammo capacity

This is a discussion on Trade off between speed of presentation and ammo capacity within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by DHart Wow... I wouldn't have expected full semi-auto reliability when fired inside a coat pocket. Nice to hear it's worked for you. ...

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Thread: Trade off between speed of presentation and ammo capacity

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    Wow... I wouldn't have expected full semi-auto reliability when fired inside a coat pocket. Nice to hear it's worked for you. It isn't something that I would want to trust my life on, personally, though. I would with a centennial-style revolver.

    Sounds like you had no issues with lighting the coat on fire, or anything like that?
    No, neither with the Kahr nor the J-frame. I was surprised.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    But do you believe it's more important than number of rounds in the gun?
    We know speed kills. We also know that misses kill. Importance for me, is a balance. Speed of presentation and enough rounds (16 in the gun) to get the job done.
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  3. #78
    Distinguished Member Array patkelly4370's Avatar
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    Why does capacity have to compromise speed, or visa-versa?
    Of course one can point to extremes of one or the other having an effect.

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  5. #79
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    I'm a believer in getting the shot off quickly which requires fast presentation. Quick kill comes to mind! This is more important than round count in most situations encountered by civilians.

    First hit wins the prize most of the time.
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    BTTT
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  7. #81
    Senior Member Array KevinRohrer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Where speed of presentation=what and where it's carried

    Thoughts?
    Umm, there is no correlation between the two.
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  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinRohrer View Post
    Umm, there is no correlation between the two.
    As an example are you saying you see no difference between pocket carry or ankle carry? I think the pocket gun would be faster to present.
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  9. #83
    Distinguished Member Array Shootnlead's Avatar
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    I will take quicker presentation over more capacity for my lifestyle and the places I tend to spend most of my time when away from home. I personally think that first shot is more of an advantage than having more rounds. First shot, even if it is a miss, will almost surely cause somewhat of a slight mental delay with an attacker...that might give an opportunity for a better placed second shot. Also, with the guns available to us, there is really no reason to have to choose between these two things.

    I think appendix is quicker...but I know that I will not carry in that position...I will take my chances with3- 4 o'clock.
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  10. #84
    Senior Member Array KevinRohrer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Struckat View Post
    As an example are you saying you see no difference between pocket carry or ankle carry? I think the pocket gun would be faster to present.
    The topic is: "Trade off between speed of presentation and ammo capacity"

    and as I wrote earlier, "there is no correlation between the two".
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  11. #85
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    Perhaps the most important part isn't the presentation nor is it the capacity but is knowing when presentation is necessary. I think (my opinion) most ordinary folks are behind the curve right from the get go and will wait way too long before the realization they must do something hits. Such as even if the threat is real and immediate they wait until the knife or gun is seen.

    But to answer the question asked I have to say all the ammo in the world won't help if the gun can't be presented in time to fire it.
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  12. #86
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinRohrer View Post
    The topic is: "Trade off between speed of presentation and ammo capacity"

    and as I wrote earlier, "there is no correlation between the two".
    Here's the correlation,

    speed of presentation= location
    ammo capacity as it relates to speed of presentation= examples
    1. G26 in an ankle holster, nah, too heavy as a double stack [ easier to access, more capacity ]
    2. G36 in an ankle holster, easier to conceal with less weight [ slower to access, less capacity ]
    3. NAA 22mag PUG carried in your shorts at appendix in deep concealment role [ slower to present/access ]
    3. NAA 22mag G17 carried in your shorts [ faster to present due to double stack grip and moire ammo ]
    4. S+W shield appendix without extended mag [ harder to access with smaller grip ]
    5. S+W shield appendix with extended mag [ easier to access with larger grip and more ammo ]
    6. 5 shot J frame with Berami hip grip appendix carried, slower to access
    7. G17 with kydex or leather holster carried appendix, faster to access

    So there's a correlation between guns that hold less amounts of ammo being used in deeper concealment than larger mid or full size guns like a G17 usually put in a belted holster. Deeper concealment usually means smaller firearms with less capacity placed in positions that can hamper presentation.

    I know it takes me more time to acquire a proper hold on the G26 without extension than the G17 in the same location. It takes me longer to acquire the NAA PUG from appendix than my G17, you get the idea.

    There's a trade off, and if you've not seen a trade off, it's because you haven't taken the time to understand what your draw speed is with various firearms/handguns to know there's a difference between accessing smaller guns with less capacity vs larger guns with more capacity.
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  13. #87
    Senior Member Array Holmes375's Avatar
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    Autoloaders that allow only a two finger grip are generally slower for me to draw and present properly than the same pistol with an extended magazine affording a three finger grip.

    More importantly, the extended mag version allows me a consistent draw and presentation. The abbreviated version sees an occasional hiccup during fast draw dry fire practice.

    The extended version often allows an extra round or two which I prefer as well unless the extension dramatically affects concealability.
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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post

    There's a trade off, and if you've not seen a trade off, it's because you haven't taken the time to understand what your draw speed is with various firearms/handguns to know there's a difference between accessing smaller guns with less capacity vs larger guns with more capacity.
    This is true.

    And it is painstakingly obvious when you are trying to go for real speed ( say, 5 shots in 4 seconds from the draw)
    The g26, as I carry it, is biased for concealment, without the pinky grip or extension, which effects both draw speed and presentation, but it’s a compromise that I accept.

    But the differences will become evident under application.
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    I come late to this thread considering when it originated, but never too late. I have a strong opinion based on real life experience. In order of importance the three decisive factors are:

    1. Accuracy – if you cannot hit the target quickly, you are at step one of losing the fight.
    2- Speed of Presentation – Precise accuracy coupled with pesentation and traget acquisition is critical. Being slow does not win gunfights.
    3- Ammo Capacity – if you do not hit the target witht the first three rounds you are unlikely to hit it with the next fourteen.

    Today, I have changed fro IWB carry either back pocket carry dee concealment of my RM380 (thanks to @AzQkr ) or I carry OWB at 2:30 o'clock using a shirt as a cloak. I carry IWB when I have to have better concealment than OWB which is not often. I choose OWB at 2;30 0'clock because mostly my hands are at my sides. I can grasp the pistol very quickly, clear the holster, and be on target in less than 2 seconds.

    I carry a PPS M2 that way because it is easily concealed OWB (see photos), reliable and accurate. I carry 7+1 with confidence because I am a good shot, and I am not getting into a running gun fight. Presented with that scenario I am using each round to cover my retreat. Two tours in NAM with a M1911 as primary in a belt carried holster at 3 o'clock convinced me that 7+0 rounds was fine if you were fast and accurate. today I go 7+1 with two extra mags. I can switch out mags very quickly if need be in covering that retreat I mentioned above.

    I learned this the hard way. Getting shot at sucks. Getting shot sucks even more. I would have only one objective in a gunfight, that is, to get the perp to disengage as quickly as possible whether by shooting him or scaring him. His choice.

    This is my OWB EDC rig witht eh PPS M2.

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  16. #90
    VIP Member Array Struckat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinRohrer View Post
    The topic is: "Trade off between speed of presentation and ammo capacity"

    and as I wrote earlier, "there is no correlation between the two".
    I get it now, I only focused speed vs what and where. I must have subconsciously blocked capacity as that is not as important to me.
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