Countering sight fixation - Page 4

Countering sight fixation

This is a discussion on Countering sight fixation within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Wheeeeeeeere ya been? Chiiillaaaaaaxxiin!!...

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Thread: Countering sight fixation

  1. #46
    Ex Member Array Nakyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Wheeeeeeeere ya been?
    Chiiillaaaaaaxxiin!!
    Mike1956 likes this.

  2. #47
    Ex Member Array Dave909's Avatar
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    This is what happens when you treat people like Cooper, Ayoob and others like gods. Whether they said something 100 years ago or last year, it becomes biblical and when someone else comes along and says "Hey, this works too" or "I've found something better, check this out", pretty much immediately it's thrown out and argued with "Yeah, well, Cooper" or "But tactics". We've got to be willing to change at times and listen to other schools of thought. I hate to tell some of these worshipers out there, but somebody taught Cooper and Ayoob all they know too. They weren't born with this stuff.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Well, this guy seems to be fast and accurate. No sights, just target focus.

    0.88 seconds, 5 targets, from the holster, single action!
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    Psalm 144:1

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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The flash sight picture is a time proven method of shooting quickly and giving good accuracy, even at distance.

    Also, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything....simply suggesting a method that I have learned and used with both rifle and pistol on the "two way range".

    This talk that in a gunfight no one looks at the front sight is simply nonsense.

    There is a proper method for every situation, and trying to extend and find the sights when someone is on top of you, is not the time for sights.

    The average shooter, and here's a news flash for some; will not practice and shoot enough to develop the muscle memory and hand to eye coordination that Rob Leatham has developed. This is a highly developed skill that very few, but those on the pro circuit, or those who go thru many thousands of rounds will achieve to a level that is consistent enough to depend on at any distance when the shtf......and that skill started out, and was developed over time using FSP.

    Ill bet if you ask him that 20 years, a million rounds, and umpteen championships ago, he would be saying something different.

    Just about any greenhorn can be taught to draw and put holes in a target at 3-7 yards by looking at the target while the pistol can be used as a reference point.
    And there is certainly a place for that, and that is from retention to about 5-7 yards.

    Anything else, for the average shooter and defensive carrier, if you want to be win the fight, you find the sight and use good shooting fundamentals.

    Now, with that said, Ill let you guys get on with your party, cause I've wasted far too much time in the past going back and forth on this stuff.
    People are free to believe whatever they want.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
    -Jeff Cooper

    “ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
    -Joe Foss

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post


    Well, this guy seems to be fast and accurate. No sights, just target focus.

    0.88 seconds, 5 targets, from the holster, single action!
    Not to take anything away from some fast impressive shooting but they usually use cornmeal for that type of shooting.
    Check out the CR-12 - wilkinsontactical.com

  7. #51
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    The average shooter, and here's a news flash for some; will not practice and shoot enough to develop the muscle memory and hand to eye coordination that Rob Leatham has developed

    Apparently, it doesn't take 20 years and upteen millions of rounds, he's teaching it to people who are novice to master class shooters.

    This is a highly developed skill that very few, but those on the pro circuit, or those who go thru many thousands of rounds will achieve to a level that is consistent enough to depend on at any distance when the shtf.

    Hmm, 5 minutes in 1981, I had apparently acquired this highly developed skill. In 1 hour, hundreds of students have been able to duplicate the skill. If it's a highly developed skill, it certainly is easy enough for people to duplicate once they have the knowledge. Leatham isn't likely to be wasting his time trying to give people insight with something they won't be able to duplicate fairly quickly.

    that skill started out, and was developed over time using FSP.

    That's the historical record behind his personal experience through trial and error. It's a stretch to believe it has to be developed from front sight press. In fact, historical record would indicate just the opposite.

    Ill let you guys get on with your party

    Party, really? All those front sight press, modern technique threads/posts where people who hung on Coopers every word were parties?

  8. #52
    Ex Member Array Dave909's Avatar
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    I'm sure others get tired of trying to explain that an idea like this isn't meant to replace the basics too. To me, he's explaining a different way to do things other than what is constantly beaten into our heads. It also seems like he's saying "Have confidence in your shot, do what you know to do, don't overthink it or try to be perfect, just aim and pull the trigger.". But, you're right, it gets tiring going back and forth with others who seem to hate or take offense to someone pointing out a different way to them after spending thousands of dollars and hours "doing it right" or not 100% word for word following the advice of long dead idols. People can indeed believe what they want, it has no effect on either one of us. As long as people are obeying safety rules and watching their six, screw it, live and let live.
    Mike1956 and AzQkr like this.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Not to take anything away from some fast impressive shooting but they usually use cornmeal for that type of shooting.
    I believe he is using wax for that demo. For other competitions and demonstrations he uses lead on steel plates, but mostly wax.
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    Psalm 144:1

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array drift's Avatar
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    I don't know about you guys, but I do both. When i'm shooting multiple targets quickly, larger targets like cans, steel, or whatever, I focus on the target. When I'm going for bullseyes and taking my time, I focus on the front sight.
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  11. #55
    Ex Member Array Dave909's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drift View Post
    I don't know about you guys, but I do both. When i'm shooting multiple targets quickly, larger targets like cans, steel, or whatever, I focus on the target. When I'm going for bullseyes and taking my time, I focus on the front sight.
    At least in my opinion, you're doing it right. Each method has its reason and its place, we don't have to throw anything out. But, hey, there will always be those that won't budge from their mindset and their way of training.
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  12. #56
    VIP Member Array Struckat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave909 View Post
    Wild Bill point, whatever, but if your other fundamentals are off like grip and trigger, you won't be doing what the shooter in the video was doing. You'll still miss or make bad placed shots.
    Your callin me out?
    I shoot just as inconsistently with or without the sights. There is a time and place for each.
    But some days I just can't pull the trigger without waving the gun around no matter where I'm lookin.
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  13. #57
    Ex Member Array Dave909's Avatar
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    Don't worry, I have bad trigger days too

  14. #58
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    Countering sight fixation

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  15. #59
    Ex Member Array Dave909's Avatar
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    Didn't think I'd see the grandfather version of the police statistic being used.

  16. #60
    Distinguished Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    The SMP were trained in all aspects of gunfighting-- from 0-25 yards--and not just point shooting-something not mentioned by Mr. Givens.
    Interesting stats but the bottom line is that the good guys killed/ wounded a lot more bad guys than vice versa.
    Put into that context I would hesitate to call the bad guys doing 15% " better" when they suffered a death rate of nearly 8-1.
    More importantly, the cops won the vast majority of the gun fights ( which is the goal of effective training, no?) and many of the dead cops were taken out by ambush.
    Which was not the case before Fairbairn drastically altered his department's training methods.
    In fact one year (1919) before Fairbairn took over as head instructor the SMP had 9 officers killed.
    Nine killed in just one year -- and back then they were trained in nothing but sighted fire techniques!
    So forgive me for not taking Tom's insinuation that point shooting is ineffective too seriously.
    Besides,there are quite a few factors besides technique that goes into properly training a professional for actual combat.
    Now let the never ending party continue.
    Mike1956 likes this.

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