Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights - Page 2

Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

This is a discussion on Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've concluded that one thing that you can learn from the proliferation of real life video's isn't in informing you of what you don't need ...

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Thread: Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array wdbailey's Avatar
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    I've concluded that one thing that you can learn from the proliferation of real life video's isn't in informing you of what you don't need but rather showing things that do work that get discounted.

    For years and years martial artist were told that high kicks would never work. You can find lots of videos that show that a boot to the head, literally a boot, is genuinely devastating. Just because there's not a lot of video of reloading and lights used doesn't disprove the validity of the techniques
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    You don't know what you don't know...
    That sounds like an ignorant rendition of the Dunning-Krueger effect.
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  3. #18
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
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    FWIW, I don't think the article is meant to imply that you shouldn't practice things like: reloads, off-hand shooting, etc. However, to some degree it does seem there's a disconnect between what actually happens out in the world and what we prioritize in training. The article seems to be attempting to persuade folks to square their training with what they're likely to face.
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  5. #19
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post
    I've concluded that one thing that you can learn from the proliferation of real life video's isn't in informing you of what you don't need but rather showing things that do work that get discounted.
    One of the big takeaways for me, which wasn't necessarily new, but re-identifies something I can really work on at home is rapid presentation from the holster and a good first hit to the A-zone with a par time of 2 seconds being the goal.
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    He watched 12 THOUSAND (!) gunfights? How many has he been...IN?
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know. -- Donald Rumsfeld
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array PO54yo's Avatar
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    This has some value in prioritizing the order of skills to be trained but I dont agree with this
    the trainee should not focus so much on a varied training. John pointed out that 80% is a “B”, and that for most, having a “B” grade in gunfighting is a practical “passing score”.
    You shouldn't train to a certain point, in this example functional but rather low, and then consider yourself "trained" and in need of "no further" as is implied. It might just be that 20% that you dont know gets you killed. It kind of reminds me of how a PD can have you qualify with 50 rounds a year and then call you "qualified". Well no you really aren't, as has been proven on many sad occasions. I guess its in conflict with my own philosophy of never stop training and never stop adding skills to your set. For instance I'm the only one I know on my Dept. that carried on both sides, which I do because I can shoot with both hands, either one handed or two handed. And I can draw and shoot the 2nd faster then I can reload the 1st ; As well if a BG is going for one I'm going to shoot him with the other. You dont know how many times Ive had to listen to "I dont want to have to protect more then one gun" from people who cant understand the concept of surviving BECAUSE your able to shoot him with a 2nd on your other side. On Officer Down I can point to 1/2 dozen guys I knew who probably would have survived had they had this skill.

    And for reloads? "Reloading" isn't the only reason you might have to reload. Anyway I can go on and on but the real basic thing I want to say is a student should be a student for life and should be constantly looking for trainers and regimes that not only move them up to the next level but leave them wanting to move up even more.

    So yes this philosophy appears to be a good starting point "tho not all of it" for a beginner but it certainly isn't a good ending point. Most videos of gunfights leave a lot to be desired skill wise and shouldn't be used as an example of good skills as much as poor. Also, learning how to move and shoot, in my opinion, is very, very important and no practical pistol course should be without it. Just being able to create distance as you draw and shoot very well might save your life.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    That sounds like an ignorant rendition of the Dunning-Krueger effect.
    I try to put things in terms my intended audience will understand...
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    I like that he has devoted time to watching videos and learning from them. However, has he ever been in a fight, or a fight with a gun. Some of the conclusions are spot on, others not so much....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  11. #25
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I like that he has devoted time to watching videos and learning from them. However, has he ever been in a fight, or a fight with a gun. Some of the conclusions are spot on, others not so much....
    There's surely a lot to be gleaned from analyzing that many violent encounters, I would say he's got a unique perspective in that regard as I'm not aware of anyone who has done the same, at least not to that degree. Tom Givens as well has similar takeaways based on interviews of students of his who HAVE gotten into violent encounters where gunfire was exchanged. I wouldn't say that one need to have gotten into a gunfight to attain the knowledge that would help them prevail in a gunfight.

    I'd be genuinely interested to hear what points you disagree with him on.
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  12. #26
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    FWIW, I was lost after the wisdom on page two about "if you're in lighting that is good enough to see your opponent and what is in his hands, then you don't need night sights to acquire a sight picture, therefore if it's too dark to see your sights, it's too dark to know if there is a threat in front of you or not." I've done enough low light shooting to know that I want any, and every advantage, I can get. Night sights aren't the be all end all of problem solvers, but they definitely have their place and can, without question (IMO), be an aid in lower light environments.
    Certainly anything that helps you get a better sight picture is worthwhile, and I'd fully agree with you that any advantage I can take, I will. I have tritium sights on my carry guns, however, I do believe there's a misconception that putting night sights on your gun suddenly means you're all set for shooting in the dark. Which is obviously not the case.

    Generally speaking, though, he's not wrong. Night sights don't in fact help you see or identify your target, and if you can do those two things, your sights will be visible as well. Do they help? Sure. But, I think generally speaking night sights are given more importance than they're due. Again, this coming from someone who puts at least a tritium front sight on any of my defensive firearms.
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymarv View Post
    There's certainly a lot to be gleaned from analyzing that many violent encounters, I would say he's got a unique perspective in that regard as I'm not aware of anyone who has done the same, at least not to that degree. Tom Givens as well has similar takeaways based on interviews of students of his who HAVE gotten into violent encounters where gunfire was exchanged. I wouldn't say that one need to have gotten into a gunfight to attain the knowledge that would help them prevail in a gunfight.

    I'd be genuinely interested to hear what points you disagree with him on.
    I generally disagree with the assertion that anything he hasn't seen whilst watching videos doesn't need to be learned. I went ahead and checked out the recommendations for "minimum standards" linked in the article here: [Minimum Standards] Shooting Ed Head?s CHL practice drill ? Notes from KR
    and demoed in the video here

    I see techniques advocated which slow the draw down and place the gun at risk in close quarters fighting. An approach that insists on getting behind the sights at full extension for a target within arm's reach (within two seconds, no less) is teaching the student how to lose a gun and the gunfight. Honest question--why the heck would anyone in good conscience advocate beginning a draw at point blank range from the surrender position?
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array forester58's Avatar
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    My take away is not to drop the things that don't seem to occur often but, to manage my training time and dollars proportionally to what is more likely to happen. I think that is only smart. I will spend less time training for the North Korean paratroopers and more time on the parking lot robbery scenario. Of course with todays atmosphere I could have that completely backwards.
    My biggest training blunder in the time I have carried a firearm is not investing in a shot timer. I have a phone app now but, I am stopping at Cabela's
    on the way home to purchase a real one. It has been an eye opener for me and I learned I was not "fast enough".

    So far for me the biggest benefit of "night sights" is finding the gun on the nightstand. Maybe I should switch to a Glo grip? A pink one.

  15. #29
    Ex Member Array bsms2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    You haven't seen my car.
    The average carjacker wouldn't know how to drive the stick shift in my 10 year old F-150. And with manual locks, I'd be hard pressed to open the passenger door for him anyways. I guess he could jump in the bed and wave his gun at me. In which case, he might be surprised to find out I do have power brakes...
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms2 View Post
    The average carjacker wouldn't know how to drive the stick shift in my 10 year old F-150. And with manual locks, I'd be hard pressed to open the passenger door for him anyways. I guess he could jump in the bed and wave his gun at me. In which case, he might be surprised to find out I do have power brakes...
    Yeah but, power brakes apparently aren't necessarily a substitute for learning to shoot with your left hand over your right shoulder, preferably implemented via a well practiced, modified Center Axis Relock technique...
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