Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights - Page 3

Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

This is a discussion on Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by heymarv There's surely a lot to be gleaned from analyzing that many violent encounters, I would say he's got a unique perspective ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymarv View Post
    There's surely a lot to be gleaned from analyzing that many violent encounters, I would say he's got a unique perspective in that regard as I'm not aware of anyone who has done the same, at least not to that degree. Tom Givens as well has similar takeaways based on interviews of students of his who HAVE gotten into violent encounters where gunfire was exchanged. I wouldn't say that one need to have gotten into a gunfight to attain the knowledge that would help them prevail in a gunfight.

    I'd be genuinely interested to hear what points you disagree with him on.
    He mentions the 80/20. In which he states that only 20 percent of skills taught were used. For me, I am not planning on a typical fight. That is why I made the statement I made in my prior post. Not every fight will be the same, or typical. He would know this if he had been in a fight. IMO it leads the reader into a false sense of security. I am not saying this article doesnt help, but there is much more to it....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  2. #32
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I generally disagree with the assertion that anything he hasn't seen whilst watching videos doesn't need to be learned.
    To be fair, that's not something he said or at least, I didn't see it. Again, I think it's just trying to get people to think more critically about what they practice and why. For what it's worth, I consider 12,000 to be a pretty good sample size. For example, when you then look at what he cited in re: reloading in the middle of a fight: statistically, it just doesn't happen, 8 out of 12,000? That's insignificant. However, as someone pointed out earlier, reloading isn't only done when the gun runs dry, it might be necessary due to a malfunction, etc. I don't think anyone would ever say you don't need to work emergency or slide lock reloads, but it's worth noting their rare necessity that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I see techniques advocated which slow the draw down and place the gun at risk in close quarters fighting ... teaching the student how to lose a gun and the gunfight.
    Indeed, there's more than one way to solve that problem as there are no absolutes. Though, I would be interested to know how many bad actors, if any in the 12,000 or elsewhere in life have performed a gun disarm successfully. My guess would be not many.

  3. #33
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    IMO it leads the reader into a false sense of security. I am not saying this article doesnt help, but there is much more to it....
    I agree, and I don't mean to sound as if I'm implying that anyone should take what he and he alone has learned, make that their training doctrine and go forth in the world. However, 12,000 incidents distilled into their common traits is valuable information in my opinion, that's all. As well, 12,000 incidents worth of data (plus what Tom Givens has found: https://americanhandgunner.com/when-...ns-fight-back/) might be good enough to get a rough idea, if we're sticking with the 80/20 principle, of what that 80% tends to look like. That's not to say you shouldn't train for the other 20% at all.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by heymarv View Post
    Indeed, there's more than one way to solve that problem as there are no absolutes. Though, I would be interested to know how many bad actors, if any in the 12,000 or elsewhere in life have performed a gun disarm successfully. My guess would be not many.
    One in which I knew the victim personally. No video on it, tho...
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array PO54yo's Avatar
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    I wonder how many shooters have never even practiced drawing from their method of carry? Most ranges dont allow drawing and firing and most shooters don't practice draw and dry fire at home. They might find some ugly surprises if they started trying to. I know I have practiced cross draw from shoulder and man its pretty slow. I still occasionally use my shoulder holsters but I have no illusions of how it will slow me down. I live in a fairly safe area so I might carry one way around the house that I'd never consider going into town. But whatever way I carry I know what I'm in for cause Ive practiced the draw.

    One way Ive totally quit is ankle rigs. I'd rather have a pocket rig.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I generally disagree with the assertion that anything he hasn't seen whilst watching videos doesn't need to be learned. I went ahead and checked out the recommendations for "minimum standards" linked in the article here: [Minimum Standards] Shooting Ed Head?s CHL practice drill ? Notes from KR
    and demoed in the video here

    I see techniques advocated which slow the draw down and place the gun at risk in close quarters fighting. An approach that insists on getting behind the sights at full extension for a target within arm's reach (within two seconds, no less) is teaching the student how to lose a gun and the gunfight. Honest question--why the heck would anyone in good conscience advocate beginning a draw at point blank range from the surrender position?
    ugh
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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    He watched 12 THOUSAND (!) gunfights? How many has he been...IN?
    Does Call of Duty count?
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PO54yo View Post
    I wonder how many shooters have never even practiced drawing from their method of carry? Most ranges dont allow drawing and firing and most shooters don't practice draw and dry fire at home. They might find some ugly surprises if they started trying to. I know I have practiced cross draw from shoulder and man its pretty slow. I still occasionally use my shoulder holsters but I have no illusions of how it will slow me down. I live in a fairly safe area so I might carry one way around the house that I'd never consider going into town. But whatever way I carry I know what I'm in for cause Ive practiced the draw.

    One way Ive totally quit is ankle rigs. I'd rather have a pocket rig.
    I carry in a shoulder rig alot. But I also carry a 2nd smaller gun to make up for the shorcomings of the shoulder rig if need be.
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  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array GpTom's Avatar
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    One thing about self awareness is that if you are in an area a lot where you have a lot of threats you are going to be tuning in to threats a lot more than when you have been in an area where there has been very little danger for a long time. The day that I got caught concentrating on some hardware in a store and the guy walked up on me- before I noticed him- I had been living where there was very little threat. I knew that I was going into a higher threat area but I was no longer in the habit of being aware of my surroundings as much. I let my guard down and the guy cost me a $15 dollar lesson. But it may have been a very valuable lesson to me. I think that it showed me how easy it is to relax if you don't feel threatened for a while and how important it is to be more careful.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    ugh
    My sentiments exactly

    Very interesting discussion. Most of the students would have two in Karl before he got the gun to eye level. Wonder how accurate he'd be then?
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    One in which I knew the victim personally. No video on it, tho...
    Sorry to hear that.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    My sentiments exactly

    Very interesting discussion. Most of the students would have two in Karl before he got the gun to eye level. Wonder how accurate he'd be then?
    Well, he'd hit the dirt with complete accuracy so there's something!
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    My sentiments exactly

    Very interesting discussion. Most of the students would have two in Karl before he got the gun to eye level. Wonder how accurate he'd be then?


    I do not see a valid comparison.
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  15. #44
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    I'd agree with that. Lets use a valid comparison.

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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post


    I do not see a valid comparison.
    Lemme see if I have this straight... You linked one of Brownie's point-shooting videos?
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