Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights - Page 4

Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

This is a discussion on Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Lemme see if I have this straight... You linked one of Brownie's point-shooting videos? Why not? This thread's OODA loop was ...

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 73
Like Tree160Likes

Thread: Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    OBWAT, TN
    Posts
    652
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Lemme see if I have this straight... You linked one of Brownie's point-shooting videos?
    Why not? This thread's OODA loop was interrupted some time ago.
    graydude and Pete63 like this.
    It's been my observation that the first few shots are the most important ones and that we will run out of time before ammunition unless our "problem" is quickly "solved." - Stephen A. Camp

    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction..." Ronald Reagan

  2. #47
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    19,639
    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    Why not? This thread's OODA loop was interrupted some time ago.
    What was the initial OODA of this thread?
    graydude and Pete63 like this.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    11,153
    Quote Originally Posted by heymarv View Post
    I agree, and I don't mean to sound as if I'm implying that anyone should take what he and he alone has learned, make that their training doctrine and go forth in the world. However, 12,000 incidents distilled into their common traits is valuable information in my opinion, that's all. As well, 12,000 incidents worth of data (plus what Tom Givens has found: https://americanhandgunner.com/when-...ns-fight-back/) might be good enough to get a rough idea, if we're sticking with the 80/20 principle, of what that 80% tends to look like. That's not to say you shouldn't train for the other 20% at all.
    Anytime anyone starts using stats and numbers to push there points I stop listening. Avg is not good enough. No one has the formula as to what is needed, or necessary to win all types of fights one might get into. When they start thinking they do, thats when folks should step back and evaluate the message being presented....It is at best a starting point...
    Mike1956, AzQkr, Bad Bob and 1 others like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    And Shepards we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee,
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, So that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command,
    And we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be,

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #49
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion county, Ohio
    Posts
    32,850
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Anytime anyone starts using stats and numbers to push there points I stop listening. Avg is not good enough. That being said, some of the info does make sense...
    Same here with the stats and numbers...
    Harryball, AzQkr and OD* like this.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

    "Slaves, enjoy your freedom." Chuck Klosterman

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    NoVA
    Posts
    3,742
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Anytime anyone starts using stats and numbers to push there points I stop listening. Avg is not good enough. No one has the formula as to what is needed, or necessary to win all types of fights one might get into. When they start thinking they do, thats when folks should step back and evaluate the message being presented....It is at best a starting point...
    Those beginning the journey into defensive skills and associated tools need to start somewhere, so developing the skills needed to respond to the most common attacks is a reasonable starting point.
    heymarv, AzQkr and Bad Bob like this.
    Ride hard, shoot straight, always speak the truth

  7. #51
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Austin, TX area
    Posts
    347
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Same here with the stats and numbers...
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Anytime anyone starts using stats and numbers to push there points I stop listening. Avg is not good enough. No one has the formula as to what is needed, or necessary to win all types of fights one might get into. When they start thinking they do, thats when folks should step back and evaluate the message being presented....It is at best a starting point...
    I'd never contend that the numbers tell the whole story, especially if you're dealing in averages, as it obviously takes a range of data points to arrive at a median. However, if your training isn't based, or doesn't at least have as part of its foundation some actual objective data, then I'm inclined to ask, "What is your training based on?"

    Which I don't mean to say as if I'm questioning your methods, just speaking generally, as people who value the right of self-defense, who (I imagine) train with some regularity - "What do you base your training on?"
    forester58 and muzzleblast like this.

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    11,153
    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    Those beginning the journey into defensive skills and associated tools need to start somewhere, so developing the skills needed to respond to the most common attacks is a reasonable starting point.
    I disagree with your statement. Please do not take this the wrong way, but playing the averages is something I will not use, nor will I teach...It leads to a false sense of security in people...
    AzQkr and OD* like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    And Shepards we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee,
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, So that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command,
    And we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be,

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    11,153
    Quote Originally Posted by heymarv View Post
    I'd never contend that the numbers tell the whole story, especially if you're dealing in averages, as it obviously takes a range of data points to arrive at a median. However, if your training isn't based, or doesn't at least have as part of its foundation some actual objective data, then I'm inclined to ask, "What is your training based on?"

    Which I don't mean to say as if I'm questioning your methods, just speaking generally, as people who value the right of self-defense, who (I imagine) train with some regularity - "What do you base your training on?"
    This may sound like a simple answer, but context based training. People have different needs for different contexts. Some train for the situations in the article, others for mass shooter, others for a terrorist event. All of which have happened, and will happen again...We should not limit ourselves...
    AzQkr and OD* like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    And Shepards we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee,
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, So that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command,
    And we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be,

  10. #54
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion county, Ohio
    Posts
    32,850
    Quote Originally Posted by heymarv View Post
    I'd never contend that the numbers tell the whole story, especially if you're dealing in averages, as it obviously takes a range of data points to arrive at a median. However, if your training isn't based, or doesn't at least have as part of its foundation some actual objective data, then I'm inclined to ask, "What is your training based on?"

    Which I don't mean to say as if I'm questioning your methods, just speaking generally, as people who value the right of self-defense, who (I imagine) train with some regularity.
    I train, practice and carry with the assumption that most anything can happen just about any time. If I have to make a contact shot from ambush, a fifty-yard head shot or anything in between, I train to at least have a decent chance of prevailing. For me, at least there is no median or average. There is also no time for worthless drills, rituals or kata that will not serve me during the real deal. That's why I sometimes seem to take extreme exception at certain practices which are generally advocated and accepted without question. Am I ever going to do a stationary, four-count draw to extension on a target six feet away, and then do a stationary check 360 over both shoulders with my gun out in front of me during the real thing? No, lest the question seem rhetorical...
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

    "Slaves, enjoy your freedom." Chuck Klosterman

  11. #55
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Austin, TX area
    Posts
    347
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    This may sound like a simple answer, but context based training. ... We should not limit ourselves...
    Totally agree with the context aspect. There's a lot of training and techniques I put further down the totem pole based on their applicability to my daily life. However, I do think more was taken from the article than was actually said in the article. The author, for example, doesn't say only train in the 20% of things he's identified as being the most common contributors to successful outcomes and stop there. I would even go so far as to say that those things highlighted in the article would serve you well in almost any given context.

    Empty handed skills - no argument from me on that one
    Getting the First Hit Usually Wins - makes sense
    Follow Up Shots Are Often Necessary - surely

    As far as the, "Trained skills that are never used" section of the article, I'll take his word based on what he's seen in the videos - it's certainly a debatable list of things. Furthermore, some of those things I'll continue to train, mostly because, "why not?"

    I thought it was a decent article taken for what it is, one man's opinion (or more accurately, one man's recounting of another man's opinion) based on watching lots of tape - it's certainly food for thought, and might steer someone toward establishing a good baseline level of useable, and more importantly, on demand skills that would serve them well in just about any violent encounter.
    muzzleblast likes this.

  12. #56
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    19,639
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    He mentions the 80/20. In which he states that only 20 percent of skills taught were used. For me, I am not planning on a typical fight. That is why I made the statement I made in my prior post. Not every fight will be the same, or typical. He would know this if he had been in a fight. IMO it leads the reader into a false sense of security. I am not saying this article doesnt help, but there is much more to it....
    And there it is, in all it's glory. I hesitated to mention it, but there it is. The truth shall set you free
    OD* and Harryball like this.

  13. #57
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion county, Ohio
    Posts
    32,850
    Quote Originally Posted by heymarv View Post
    Totally agree with the context aspect. There's a lot of training and techniques I put further down the totem pole based on their applicability to my daily life. However, I do think more was taken from the article than was actually said in the article. The author, for example, doesn't say only train in the 20% of things he's identified as being the most common contributors to successful outcomes and stop there. I would even go so far as to say that those things highlighted in the article would serve you well in almost any given context.

    Empty handed skills - no argument from me on that one
    Getting the First Hit Usually Wins - makes sense
    Follow Up Shots Are Often Necessary - surely

    As far as the, "Trained skills that are never used" section of the article, I'll take his word based on what he's seen in the videos - it's certainly a debatable list of things. Furthermore, some of those things I'll continue to train, mostly because, "why not?"

    I thought it was a decent article taken for what it is, one man's opinion (or more accurately, one man's recounting of another man's opinion) based on watching lots of tape - it's certainly food for thought, and might steer someone toward establishing a good baseline level of useable, and more importantly, on demand skills that would serve them well in just about any violent encounter.
    I'm not arguing, simply giving you something to ponder perhaps a bit more deeply--

    Rhetorical, perhaps, but out of all those 12,000 videos he watched, how many do you suppose featured a stationary, perfect isosceles/whatever stance with a four-count drawstroke to extension as taught by most of the major schools, on a target a few feet away? With that said, why was no mention of that number made in his statistical breakdown?
    AzQkr likes this.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

    "Slaves, enjoy your freedom." Chuck Klosterman

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    OBWAT, TN
    Posts
    652
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I'm not arguing, simply giving you something to ponder perhaps a bit more deeply--

    Rhetorical, perhaps, but out of all those 12,000 videos he watched, how many do you suppose featured a stationary, perfect isosceles/whatever stance ...
    Actually, the link provided in the second post in this thread contains Correia's own summary of his observations.

    Regarding your question above, he states:

    "6. You simply WILL NOT stand still while someone wants to kill you. Unless you’re counter-ambushing, when the gun comes out you will move. So training students to move with purpose while #3 and 4 are going on is also a critical skill. They’re going to do it, so teach them to use it."

    Point #3 pertains to being the first to get shots on target, and #4 pertains to rapid follow up shots.

    Here's the link again, for those who would care to read Correia's commentary, beginning page 3.

    http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/up...Newsletter.pdf
    It's been my observation that the first few shots are the most important ones and that we will run out of time before ammunition unless our "problem" is quickly "solved." - Stephen A. Camp

    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction..." Ronald Reagan

  15. #59
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion county, Ohio
    Posts
    32,850
    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    Actually, the link provided in the second post in this thread contains Correia's own summary of his observations.

    Regarding your question above, he states:

    "6. You simply WILL NOT stand still while someone wants to kill you. Unless you’re counter-ambushing, when the gun comes out you will move. So training students to move with purpose while #3 and 4 are going on is also a critical skill. They’re going to do it, so teach them to use it."

    Point #3 pertains to being the first to get shots on target, and #4 pertains to rapid follow up shots.

    Here's the link again, for those who would care to read Correia's commentary, beginning page 3.

    http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/up...Newsletter.pdf
    And yet, the school his observations were presented to says subscribes to the following, linked in their article:

    "At KR Training, one of our ongoing efforts is to identify acceptable minimum standards for defensive handgun skills. Gunsite instructor Ed Head posted a drill he recommends as a good standard for any person carrying concealed, so John and I went to the range and shot the drill to give it a try.

    The drill is simple:

    3 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass, 2 seconds, strong hand only.
    3 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass, 2 seconds, strong hand only.
    3 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass, one round to the head, 3 seconds, two handed.
    3 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass, one round to the head, 3 seconds, two handed.
    5 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass on two separate targets. 4 seconds, two handed.
    10 yards, low ready position. Two rounds center mass, one target. 4 seconds, two handed.
    10 yards, low ready position, Two rounds center mass on two separate targets, 5 seconds, two handed."
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

    "Slaves, enjoy your freedom." Chuck Klosterman

  16. #60
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    19,639
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    And yet, the school his observations were presented to says subscribes to the following, linked in their article:

    "At KR Training, one of our ongoing efforts is to identify acceptable minimum standards for defensive handgun skills. Gunsite instructor Ed Head posted a drill he recommends as a good standard for any person carrying concealed, so John and I went to the range and shot the drill to give it a try.

    The drill is simple:

    3 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass, 2 seconds, strong hand only.
    3 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass, 2 seconds, strong hand only.
    3 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass, one round to the head, 3 seconds, two handed.
    3 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass, one round to the head, 3 seconds, two handed.
    5 yards, draw from concealment. Two rounds center mass on two separate targets. 4 seconds, two handed.
    10 yards, low ready position. Two rounds center mass, one target. 4 seconds, two handed.
    10 yards, low ready position, Two rounds center mass on two separate targets, 5 seconds, two handed."
    "acceptable minimum standards", = "a good standard"

    Key words Mike. I'd guess there's many here who couldn't duplicate the above drills without struggling. Far too many have a 1.5-2.0+ draw stroke from concealed.

    Still waiting for the description of what the OODA of this thread was.
    Mike1956 likes this.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •