Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights - Page 5

Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

This is a discussion on Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 And yet, the school his observations were presented to says subscribes to the following, linked in their article: ... Correia presented ...

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Thread: Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    And yet, the school his observations were presented to says subscribes to the following, linked in their article:

    ...
    Correia presented his observations at a Rangemaster Instructor Development Course.
    The guy linked in the original post, Karl Rehn, was an "instructor" attendee, who then put his spin on the findings.
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    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne, "The Shootist."

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    Correia presented his observations at a Rangemaster Instructor Development Course.
    The guy linked in the original post, Karl Rehn, was an "instructor" attendee, who then put his spin on the findings.
    Exactly...
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

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  3. #63
    Member Array heymarv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I'm not arguing, simply giving you something to ponder perhaps a bit more deeply--

    Rhetorical, perhaps, but out of all those 12,000 videos he watched, how many do you suppose featured a stationary, perfect isosceles/whatever stance with a four-count drawstroke to extension as taught by most of the major schools, on a target a few feet away? With that said, why was no mention of that number made in his statistical breakdown?
    I didn't take your replies as argumentative, on the contrary I've enjoyed this discussion quite a bit as I think the larger topic surrounding it, ie. training standards, objectivity as it relates (or doesn't?) to standards, etc. is a worthwhile conversation to have, if not with oneself in an effort to arrive at standards that reflect the world you live in.
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  5. #64
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Lemme see if I have this straight... You linked one of Brownie's point-shooting videos?
    Yup, he said one of his students would have the guy shooting the drill shot first. Hand on the gun, open carry is not the same as hands relaxed drawing from concealment.
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=AzQkr;6600370]I'd agree with that. Lets use a valid comparison.


    Still not valid, teacher VS student.



    Fast forward to 11 minutes. Another instructor, a valid comparison.
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  7. #66
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    "acceptable minimum standards", = "a good standard"

    Key words Mike. I'd guess there's many here who couldn't duplicate the above drills without struggling. Far too many have a 1.5-2.0+ draw stroke from concealed.

    Still waiting for the description of what the OODA of this thread was.
    Ed Head is a retired Border Patrol firearms instructor. He know what he is talking about.
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  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Ed Head is a retired Border Patrol firearms instructor. He know what he is talking about.
    All I have to go by is what he wrote and what is shown in the video...
    AzQkr likes this.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

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  9. #68
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Bad Bob;6603642]
    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I'd agree with that. Lets use a valid comparison.


    Still not valid, teacher VS student.



    Fast forward to 11 minutes. Another instructor, a valid comparison.
    Nah, the guys an instructor [ KT ], not a student. Any number of students could put two in that instructor [ KT ] before he got a round off like I mentioned, as could I, as demonstrated. Students are as capable and sometimes more capable than myself, who's slowing down due to age. The comparison you used wasn't a comparison at all, being a totally different goal.

    Karl Rehn www.krtraining.com ""At KR Training, one of our ongoing efforts is to identify acceptable minimum standards for defensive handgun skills." If that's a identified acceptable minimum standard, they need to raise their standards IMO

    And I Zero's vid you just put up is a valid comparison as well to the KRtraining vid were were discussing. Which further advances my stated opinion that KR would get eaten alive by others with demonstrated far superior skills.

  10. #69
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Ed Head is a retired Border Patrol firearms instructor. He know what he is talking about.
    As his statements are in "quotes", they stand on their own merit Bob, no matter whether he's a border trainer or gunsite trainer or walks on water.. .

  11. #70
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Yup, he said one of his students would have the guy shooting the drill shot first. Hand on the gun, open carry is not the same as hands relaxed drawing from concealment.
    I made the statement in the context of what KR demonstrated, not a different skill with a different goal. Your example wasn't within the same context and thus it was apples to oranges comparison. The one I put up is an apples to apples comparison as was the context of the statement made. He draws from concealed, so did I. He was 9 feet [ if you buy that ] and I was at 10 feet. He went one handed, I went one handed. All of those suggest it's in the correct context where yours wasn't.

    As for John's opinions on the video's he's watched, lets keep that in context as well. He's been shooting just 12 years, he majored in seminary studies, has no professional street experience and is just a guy who expresses his opinions on video's.

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    All I have to go by is what he wrote and what is shown in the video...
    All I did was offer information. Take it or leave it.
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    As his statements are in "quotes", they stand on their own merit Bob, no matter whether he's a border trainer or gunsite trainer.. .
    Both, walk on water.....I will leave that to you.
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  14. #73
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Both, walk on water.....I will leave that to you.
    Nah, I'm absolutely geriatric. But that doesn't change the fact KR would have two in him before he got a round off by most students. Line of sight shooting at 9 feet isn't something I would ever consider, I'd be even more geriatric like KR exhibits.

    If people are going to put up vids of people/trainers shooting, I'm going to compare them to my students and my own shooting automatically. And I've got real time vids to compare them to, not just words spoken on a gun site web page.

    https://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...-shooting.html

    Post 5
    When we were working at 3 yrds, your times were initially in the mid .90's. But I pushed you into .80's and then .70's. Kept telling you if you can get a .73, you can break 6's, and then on the next few runs made a few .68 in a row from 1/2 hip

    Adding 1/2 second for the concealed draw, he's at 1.18-1.23 seconds and that's after an hour on the skill. More than enough time to put two into a trainer who takes near 2 seconds to get the first shot off at eye level from the same distance.

    Mike1956, another student is more than capable of putting two into a shooter that's also just under 2 seconds to the first shot at eye level at 9 feet. He's had two hours on the skill in two courses of fire.
    Last edited by AzQkr; December 6th, 2017 at 12:10 AM.
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