Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

This is a discussion on Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If you have not spent some time watching the videos from Active Self Protection, you should. Here is an article that gives you a flavor ...

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Thread: Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

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    Member Array chasbo00's Avatar
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    Lessons from Watching 12,000 gunfights

    If you have not spent some time watching the videos from Active Self Protection, you should. Here is an article that gives you a flavor and also provides some insight on some things we train for that may be less important than we thought.

    Even more knowledge from the 2017 Rangemaster Instructor Conference ? Notes from KR

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    Senior Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Here's a more succinct summary from the Feb. 2017 Rangemaster newsletter, beginning page 3.

    http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/up...Newsletter.pdf
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    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne, "The Shootist."

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    I find a couple of his conclusions both short-sighted and flawed. He assumes, like many, that simply because he has never personally seen a skill used, it isn't necessary.

    Having run Force-on-force scenarios in which the ability to change hands with the gun and the effective use of a light were critical in my successful solution of the problem, my own experience runs counter to his video-induced assertions. His rationales for the teaching of skills is also shortsighted and narrow.

    How many videos has he watched of intended carjackings which were solved within the vehicle? None, I'm guessing. I would encourage everyone who believes that hand-changing skills are unnecessary to try drawing and (dry) firing their gun while seated in the drivers seat at the passenger or rear seats without moving the gun to the left hand.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws.― Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Mike,

    I think he is right for what he saw, but like you I disagree with some of his conclusions. Reloading is a necessary skill. Depending on cover, you just may need to switch hands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I find a couple of his conclusions both short-sighted and flawed. He assumes, like many, that simply because he has never personally seen a skill used, it isn't necessary.

    Having run Force-on-force scenarios in which the ability to change hands with the gun and the effective use of a light were critical in my successful solution of the problem, my own experience runs counter to his video-induced assertions. His rationales for the teaching of skills is also shortsighted and narrow.

    How many videos has he watched of intended carjackings which were solved within the vehicle? None, I'm guessing. I would encourage everyone who believes that hand-changing skills are unnecessary to try drawing and (dry) firing their gun while seated in the drivers seat at the passenger or rear seats without moving the gun to the left hand.
    Like most things that defy odds, you don't need them until you do; kinda like carrying a firearm for self defense in the first place...

    FWIW, I was lost after the wisdom on page two about "if you're in lighting that is good enough to see your opponent and what is in his hands, then you don't need night sights to acquire a sight picture, therefore if it's too dark to see your sights, it's too dark to know if there is a threat in front of you or not." I've done enough low light shooting to know that I want any, and every advantage, I can get. Night sights aren't the be all end all of problem solvers, but they definitely have their place and can, without question (IMO), be an aid in lower light environments.
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    Senior Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    ...How many videos has he watched of intended carjackings which were solved within the vehicle? ... I would encourage everyone who believes that hand-changing skills are unnecessary to try drawing and (dry) firing their gun while seated in the drivers seat at the passenger or rear seats without moving the gun to the left hand.
    So, the scenario is an armed carjacker has gained entry within the vehicle, and the purported solution is to draw against the drop, shift the gun to the left hand (for those who are right handed) and then engage the threat... even if the gunman has gained entry to the back seat? Hmmm.
    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne, "The Shootist."

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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    So, the scenario is an armed carjacker has gained entry within the vehicle, and the purported solution is to draw against the drop, shift the gun to the left hand (for those who are right handed) and then engage the threat... even if the gunman has gained entry to the back seat? Hmmm.
    Sure... You're obviously thinking about the guy having a gun pointed at your head. But timing is everything and plenty of people come out on top of encounters like that because they're A.) prepared to deal with the situation and B.) they have the skill and preparation to know how and when to respond. The guy turns his attention elsewhere, the muzzle dips off target, he finds a new, more immediate problem to address, whatever. If his OODA loop gets reset, there's no reason to assume that you can't act and effect a positive outcome for yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    So, the scenario is an armed carjacker has gained entry within the vehicle, and the purported solution is to draw against the drop, shift the gun to the left hand (for those who are right handed) and then engage the threat... even if the gunman has gained entry to the back seat? Hmmm.
    I'm purporting nothing, merely relating my own experience...
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    Senior Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    Sure... You're obviously thinking about the guy having a gun pointed at your head. But timing is everything and plenty of people come out on top of encounters like that because they're A.) prepared to deal with the situation and B.) they have the skill and preparation to know how and when to respond. The guy turns his attention elsewhere, the muzzle dips off target, he finds a new, more immediate problem to address, whatever. If his OODA loop gets reset, there's no reason to assume that you can't act and effect a positive outcome for yourself.
    If my SA was so poor as to have a guy in the car with a gun pointed at me, and all he wants is the car, I'd be happy to let him have the car. Goin' fer yur gun ain't always the best option. Other times it is. Just sayin'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    If my SA was so poor as to have a guy in the car with a gun pointed at me, and all he wants is the car, I'd be happy to let him have the car. Goin' fer yur gun ain't always the best option. Other times it is. Just sayin'.
    You don't know what you don't know...
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    Senior Member Array muzzleblast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    You don't know what you don't know...
    You haven't seen my car.
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    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne, "The Shootist."

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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
    If my SA was so poor as to have a guy in the car with a gun pointed at me, and all he wants is the car, I'd be happy to let him have the car. Goin' fer yur gun ain't always the best option. Other times it is. Just sayin'.
    While I totally agree that the gun shouldn't be your only consideration, I accept the fact that I cannot, nor will I ever, have the clarity to know what someone actually 'wants' until they've acted upon it. Hope, as Giuliani said, isn't a strategy. I'm always going to assume the worst and respond accordingly because if I knew that all he wanted was the vehicle, I wouldn't be in fear for my life at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    While I totally agree that the gun shouldn't be your only consideration, I accept the fact that I cannot, nor will I ever, have the clarity to know what someone actually 'wants' until they've acted upon it. Hope, as Giuliani said, isn't a strategy. I'm always going to assume the worst and respond accordingly because if I knew that all he wanted was the vehicle, I wouldn't be in fear for my life at all.
    SA isn't much help once the ambush has been sprung. At that point, reaction becomes the key to success or failure, depending...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    SA isn't much help once the ambush has been sprung. At that point, reaction becomes the key to success or failure, depending...
    Yes. And, in all honesty, I'm pretty much over the SA thing as some sort of catch all idea for not stepping in the pile of excrement. People would do themselves a huge favor if they'd learn to understand that their SA is going to be on point about 10% as often as they believe it to be. I spend the majority of my week, every week, being reminded of how difficult it is to actually catch everything that's going on around you. Since I'm with a whole crew of other guys that are also looking to catch stuff, we are constantly overlapping and spending equal time being the guy that missed it or the guy that caught it; it's humbling to say the least but it gives me a perspective that I appreciate even if I don't like what it says. I fully realize that my SA is never going to be the omnipotent force that I'd like it to be.
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    One might consider age as a factor in such encounters as well, but not in the way one might suspect. I find that it is much more difficult to maintain SA now than it was 10 years ago. Given that the only thing which has changed is that I have gotten older, and recognizing that my body requires certain "preparations" before actions, (as in I have to have my right leg in a certain position before I stand, etc, as in metal knee, same with right leg due to muscle injury, frozen shoulder) I believe that these distractions have lessened my ability to maintain SA simply because more of my attention is consumed in everyday common actions. When we throw in the Adrenalin, it becomes even more important in that I can put myself out of action without any help from the bad guy if I don't pay attention to how I move. More evidence for the old man thing; if we can't fight we'll just shoot you.
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