What I learned in force-on-force

What I learned in force-on-force

This is a discussion on What I learned in force-on-force within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just completed a three day force-on-force class that I would have to say was probably the single most worthwhile “firearms” training I have done. ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    What I learned in force-on-force

    I just completed a three day force-on-force class that I would have to say was probably the single most worthwhile “firearms” training I have done. Although I have taken many courses where we have shot on the move, moving off the line of force, or forwards and backwards, none have put the emphasis on movement that this course did.

    Not only did we move, but we also learned where to move and how to move to hopefully avoid getting shot. A great deal of what was covered was counter-intuitive, such as moving in a diagonal line “towards” an attacker armed with a firearm, to force him to change his angle of shooting. Much emphasis was also placed on changing your direction of movement and how to do this quickly.

    We also spent a great deal of time practicing how to change levels when confronted in a narrow space, such as in a hallway or in a parking lot between cars. We learned how to fall without injuring oneself and to shoot from this position efficiently.

    Most of the people who took the course were using Airsoft pistols, but a couple were also using UTM (Ultimate Training Munitions) equipped firearms. They all hurt (UTMs hurt more!) even if you were somewhat padded up. I got shot in the gap between my mask and ball cap as well as on the side of my head a couple of times. All of these impacts drew blood (even with the ball cap covering my head) and while I am not a masochist, I think a bit of pain in these scenarios serves to emphasize that you do not want to get shot. Impacts at close range created bruises (or bleeding) if all you were wearing was a T-shirt. If you’re so padded up that you don’t know if you got hit, I think you won’t learn as much.

    At 66, I was one of four older guys in the class, with many of the participants in their 20s and 30s. I definitely got my butt kicked a number of times, but the course served to drive home the need to move, and move quickly, when confronted with a violent attacker. By the time the course was finished, I was sore in places I didn’t know I had, mostly from all of the movements required to fight.

    My wife, who is recovering from a fractured foot, watched the entire course and we plan to continue to work on these sorts of skills, in addition to our regular firearms practice, once she has recovered.

    What I learned in force-on-force-bicep-wounds.jpg

    First day's wounds....

    What I learned in force-on-force-shooting-move.jpg

    Movement is essential.

    What I learned in force-on-force-changing-level.jpg

    I padded up more as the course went on!
    If something is important enough, you will find a way. If it's not, you will find an excuse.

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    Glad to hear that young people are pursuing such endeavors.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Gunnie's Avatar
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    Excellent glad to hear you enjoyed it force on force or what we typically call sims is some of the most advantageous training you can seek. Glad to see and hear of more folks undertaking this level of training.

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    Definitely an eye-opener.

    I always like being the bad guy when cops were being trained. I used to pull all sorts of tricks on them.

    Next up, you ought to try it in the dark using hand or weapon held lights. That'll hurt even more.
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    Back in the Nam era Marines were not trained to clear buildings. We did train in what was called “combat village” was based upon the battle for Seoul in the Korean War. We trained to move through civilian city landscape street by street. After days of repeating that training we felt confident about doing it should we have to. Then the Gunny who ruled over the training burst our bubbles. I am going to as close as possible recite what he said as we completed the training.

    Today you have learned what any rat can learn. You have learned to get through a maze by doing it repeatedly. But what happens to a rat when the avenues through the maze are changed. The rat gets confused and gets lost because it has learned the path to follow a certain path and suddenly that path is cut off. This training showed you the basics of maneuver. Those basics are to applied to a situation. They are not a solution. You are the solution. Apply your basic training and the innovate formthe specifics of the situation you might face.

    I applaud training. It makes us sharper than we might otherwise be. However, training is a means to an end not the end itself. The words “rely on your training” do not mean training is a solution. They mean training leads to being able to adapt and find a solution. One trains to be bettter able to adapt and innovate. Traingbwill never save you, the ability to adapt and innovate based on training will.
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    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Definitely an eye-opener.

    I always like being the bad guy when cops were being trained. I used to pull all sorts of tricks on them.

    Next up, you ought to try it in the dark using hand or weapon held lights. That'll hurt even more.
    Learned some of my most valuable lessons running a Simmunition range where I got to not only set up the range, but play the adversary to the LE being trained.
    Any exercise done in low light is more complicated than in daylight.
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    Distinguished Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    May I ask who put on this course?
    Did they emphasize point shooting?
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    That is not for me. My movement is limited, and if I were to "go to the ground," that is where I'd stay. My knees and back would need a time out to get back up. My temperament would not take kindly to getting painfully smacked with a paintball, so I'll have to pass.
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    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    May I ask who put on this course?
    Did they emphasize point shooting?
    The course was put on by Gabe Suarez ( and yes, I know some people here are not fans of his. I'm not interested in debating Suarez's merits or demerits). Yes, it pretty much all was point shooting. I don't think I took a shot beyond 10 feet.
    If something is important enough, you will find a way. If it's not, you will find an excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    The course was put on by Gabe Suarez ( and yes, I know some people here are not fans of his. I'm not interested in debating Suarez's merits or demerits). Yes, it pretty much all was point shooting. I don't think I took a shot beyond 10 feet.
    Not interested???? C'mon, man, this is the internet!!!
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    In my training I thought FOF was the proving grounds of the gunfighting skills you had learned from your other training courses/classes.
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    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mailman View Post
    In my training I thought FOF was the proving grounds of the gunfighting skills you had learned from your other training courses/classes.
    One would hope so, but that does not appear to be the case. I've trained with many instructors who have very good reputations (with both strong military and LE backgrounds) and none have had us move in the ways we did here, while explaining the why of how this would work.
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    If something is important enough, you will find a way. If it's not, you will find an excuse.

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    Member Array mailman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    One would hope so, but that does not appear to be the case. I've trained with many instructors who have very good reputations (with both strong military and LE backgrounds) and none have had us move in the ways we did here, while explaining the why of how this would work.
    Proving my point....You learned training learned from others left you coming up short and wanting. So now where does your training need to go?

    While no longer a Gabe fan the 'Getting off the X' proved for me to be a help in situations. Point Shooting was also a big plus, when confronted with a threat it's hard to take your eyes off it.
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    Sounds like an informative, if painful, experience, G26Raven. I'm kind of along the lines with OV: My balance is pretty much gone, range of motion limited, and moving quickly tends to result in injury. If I go down, that's where I'll be fighting from. Sorry to hear of Mrs. G26Raven's injury; I hope she recovers quickly.
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    So who is this Will that everybody fires at, what did he do, and how come he's not dead yet??

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    Quote Originally Posted by mailman View Post
    In my training I thought FOF was the proving grounds of the gunfighting skills you had learned from your other training courses/classes.
    It depends on what fighting skills you've learned previously. Fighting with a gun is not standing on a square range using your sights against stationary threats/.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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