Things That Bug Me About Popular Training Dogma and Doctrine - Page 4

Things That Bug Me About Popular Training Dogma and Doctrine

This is a discussion on Things That Bug Me About Popular Training Dogma and Doctrine within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by WebleyHunter Right. The muzzle is rotated towards the target immediately after clearing the holster on the technique I use, as well. Maybe, ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    Right. The muzzle is rotated towards the target immediately after clearing the holster on the technique I use, as well.



    Maybe, but by the time your arms have gone though the cramped manipulation of drawing straight-up (with gun pointed towards target) and then transitioning to the push out phase, my gun is already on target in full firing stance. What caliber are you shooting, 9mm or .44 mag? Why do you need to be in a full isoscoles stance to manage the recoil of a service caliber autoloader for the one or two shots that could be fired mid-draw?
    It looks like you are isolating two separate arguments. First, we agree that the "push out" technique allows shooting with the gun close in. This has cqb advantages over swinging the gun up. Then, you ask why a solid isoceles stance is needed. We just agreed that it isn't. Yet your swing up method ends up in isoceles anyway. So what are you shooting?

    Another advantage to consider: you can begin shooting at any point during the push. Executed well, the muzzle is in line with the target the entire time. When you reach full extension, any error in movement or timing is in line with the target.

    Swinging the gun to the target: the rotational inertia means more adjustments to get the muzzle stopped on the target. It is more likely to swing high or adjust low. Swinging the barrel works well on moving targets, but you need to be swinging in the same plane as the movement of the target (think skeet shooting).

    Swinging the barrel up can still work. Plenty of modern cowboy shooters use it one handed. We should be realistic about the gives and takes of different techniques.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunTsu View Post
    When I was taking my first class for my concealed license years ago I had an instructor that taught locked arm isosceles. Why? Because you want your chest facing the threat so that you take all the shots to your chest and your vest stops the shots.
    I have a buddy that took only his class and never another. Poor guy struggles to break the habit after years of practicing that way. Ask him to shoot on the move. Mid-stride he'll lock up his whole body and come to this weird artificial stance, take a shot, then have to get back into a running stance. He reminds me of one of those fainting goats when their legs lock up.
    Attachment 295352
    If he's moving forward or slight oblique forward, it works fine. All other moving would require something different. Sounds like the guy took that stance too literally.
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  3. #48
    VIP Member Array WebleyHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    It looks like you are isolating two separate arguments. First, we agree that the "push out" technique allows shooting with the gun close in. This has cqb advantages over swinging the gun up. Then, you ask why a solid isoceles stance is needed. We just agreed that it isn't. Yet your swing up method ends up in isoceles anyway. So what are you shooting?

    Another advantage to consider: you can begin shooting at any point during the push. Executed well, the muzzle is in line with the target the entire time. When you reach full extension, any error in movement or timing is in line with the target.

    Swinging the gun to the target: the rotational inertia means more adjustments to get the muzzle stopped on the target. It is more likely to swing high or adjust low. Swinging the barrel works well on moving targets, but you need to be swinging in the same plane as the movement of the target (think skeet shooting).

    Swinging the barrel up can still work. Plenty of modern cowboy shooters use it one handed. We should be realistic about the gives and takes of different techniques.
    I am really doing a poor job of explaining this...

    Step 0- I shoot a modified Weaver, so my body is angled towards the target and not perpendicular (like it would be for iso).
    Step 1- Draw gun from holster with strong side hand.
    Step 2- Rotate gun towards target.
    Step 3- Move gun roughly in front of belly button where is grasped by support hand.
    Step 4- Lift and extend simultaneously keeping gun pointed nominally at target.
    Step 5- Complete sight alignment and fire.

    I am not bringing the gun to my nipples then pressing out, nor "swinging" it up to the firing plane from some low extended ready position.
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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Stationary four count draw-stroke from the surrender position has precedence in fights of the past?
    Probably not, but its much better than fishing or bowling. So if you are going to practice it might be beneficial. Otherwise get it done anyway you want...

    Also have you ever trained any hand to hand. You can fight out of that position very well.
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  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    I am really doing a poor job of explaining this...

    Step 0- I shoot a modified Weaver, so my body is angled towards the target and not perpendicular (like it would be for iso).
    Step 1- Draw gun from holster with strong side hand.
    Step 2- Rotate gun towards target.
    Step 3- Move gun roughly in front of belly button where is grasped by support hand.
    Step 4- Lift and extend simultaneously keeping gun pointed nominally at target.
    Step 5- Complete sight alignment and fire.

    I am not bringing the gun to my nipples then pressing out, nor "swinging" it up to the firing plane from some low extended ready position.
    And done correctly it is one fluid motion.
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  7. #51
    Member Array mrtimm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskys2 View Post
    I expect the check 360 is trying to ingrain to the student to look aroung to make sure you are not being further attacked by accomplices, problem is will you look and still not see?

    Starting from surrender, don't want to start a fight until you've surrendered? Guess hands have to start somewhere.

    The only one shot, addresses a situation I guess where you feel you would have to take a shot to save a loved one and the loved one is the hostage. Probably a good marksmanship under stress tool, but may end up just proving the point that one "wouldn't" want to try it no matter what.
    Wasn't it Miami Vice, or maybe Taken?, where the bad guy is holding a hostage, only a head shot is available, the bad guy says something like you don't want to miss and the good guy says "maybe I won't (BANG) miss?" Bad guy dies, good guy wins. Loved that, just don't want it.
    Miami Vice, great episode. Great use of a flintlock!
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Why train in anything that won't be happening real world?
    I use them on occasion, but I see them taught improperly, frequently.
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