Things That Bug Me About Popular Training Dogma and Doctrine

Things That Bug Me About Popular Training Dogma and Doctrine

This is a discussion on Things That Bug Me About Popular Training Dogma and Doctrine within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There are several bits of dogma and doctrine put forth at many of the top training venues which bother me to the point of finding ...

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 52
Like Tree210Likes

Thread: Things That Bug Me About Popular Training Dogma and Doctrine

  1. #1
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion county, Ohio
    Posts
    32,159

    Things That Bug Me About Popular Training Dogma and Doctrine

    There are several bits of dogma and doctrine put forth at many of the top training venues which bother me to the point of finding them counter-productive, maybe even dangerous in a real-life encounter. Feel free to add to, or eviscerate:

    The "Check 360" prior to holstering. This is the one, insisted on by many trainers, in which the student is required to look to the rear over each shoulder after the last shot taken, prior to holstering, to "check for additional threats". It is done from a stationary posture, keeping the gun pointed at the shooter's 12:00. This has the effect of putting the student's face directly between any possible threat and the muzzle line of his gun. If there actually was a threat to the rear, he would actually be getting punched in the face or worse, defenselessly.

    Starting the draw from the surrender position. This one simply slows the draw down by adding pointless, additional motion and distance between the hands, gun and first shot. In an actual situation, those added tenths could well be the difference between success and dead.

    The "you only get one shot" scenario, often some rendition of a hostage or distance shot, or both. In the scenario training, one shot and one shot only is allowed. Again, in a real situation, adhering to that protocol could well be the difference between success and something much less desirable. Everywhere else, shooting until the threat is stopped is to go-to strategy. Why change it to the shooter's detriment here?
    AzQkr, Holmes375, flh and 11 others like this.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    West Branch
    Posts
    5,856
    I'll bite. I am listening to Clues, part of Jan Hammer's Miami Vice diatribe, so take this in stride.

    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
    Doghandler
    We have deep thinkers and stinkers in this group that could come up with a solution...
    welder516
    Buck the donkey

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    5,745
    I agree on all points and I think the list doesn't end there. Things I would add, for the courses I have taken are:
    • Restricted movement. You are either standing in a shooting lane or maybe, with some advanced courses, you get to move a few steps to cover. I know some even more advanced classes have greater freedom of motion, but I think teaching beginners to just stand there like a statue and shoot is setting them up for failure in the real world. Escape and evasion is not taught.
    • Lack of CQB, in contact with the attacker training, including gun retention, contact shots, gaining space to draw, etc. even though we know that is the most likely attack someone will face. Yeah, I know there are some courses that teach it, but they are rare and it is considered advanced. Even the most basic H2H courses deal with contact situations from the get go. Most shooting courses pretend it isn't even a possibility. They assume you are going to have time to get your gun into action and the shot will be 10 - 30 feet away. And if the target is supposed to be the "bad guy" he will just wait patiently for you to shoot him.
    • Revolvers don't count. Even though revolvers are one of the most commonly carried types of handguns, you show up to most defensive handgun classes and at worst revos not allowed and at best you are the black sheep of the class and are not taught any skills to handle them better.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    16,682
    I agree. Other dogma that ticks me off;

    -the ingrained training that if you do this correctly and quickly enough that you will not take a hit. This is setting people up for unrealistic expectations and does not promote the survival and fight thru mentality needed to persevere or cultivate a proper mindset.

    - trying to relate police or military tactics and training as an absolute in predominantly civilian oriented classes.
    Mike1956, AzQkr, Bikenut and 12 others like this.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
    -Jeff Cooper

    “ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
    -Joe Foss

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    West Branch
    Posts
    5,856
    Fighting thru is something that should be learned before the teenage years.
    Bikenut, bakes, Bad Bob and 3 others like this.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
    Doghandler
    We have deep thinkers and stinkers in this group that could come up with a solution...
    welder516
    Buck the donkey

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    West Branch
    Posts
    5,856
    Every young boy and girl and all genders in between need to learn the way of an enlightened and dangerous beast.

    Boat Party
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
    Doghandler
    We have deep thinkers and stinkers in this group that could come up with a solution...
    welder516
    Buck the donkey

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member
    Array 1942bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    1,609
    The "Check 360" prior to holstering. This is the one, insisted on by many trainers, in which the student is required to look to the rear over each shoulder after the last shot taken, prior to holstering, to "check for additional threats". It is done from a stationary posture, keeping the gun pointed at the shooter's 12:00. This has the effect of putting the student's face directly between any possible threat and the muzzle line of his gun. If there actually was a threat to the rear, he would actually be getting punched in the face or worse, defenselessly.
    I learned to not take your eye off the aggressor until you are certain he is unable to get off another shot. That means dead or suffering from massive injury. Training for the almost inconceivable scenario that you might be caught in flanking movement or rear attack in a civilian scenario is silly. Could it happen. Likely? No. I m not losing any sleep over that scenario.

    Starting the draw from the surrender position. This one simply slows the draw down by adding pointless, additional motion and distance between the hands, gun and first shot. In an actual situation, those added tenths could well be the difference between success and dead.
    The most direct attack in civilian or military combat is always to press the attack as quickly as possible with the greatest fericity you can muster. It is that simple and well proven by experience not theory.

    The "you only get one shot" scenario, often some rendition of a hostage or distance shot, or both. In the scenario training, one shot and one shot only is allowed. Again, in a real situation, adhering to that protocol could well be the difference between success and something much less desirable. Everywhere else, shooting until the threat is stopped is to go-to strategy. Why change it to the shooter's detriment here?
    You cannot train for such a situation. You have to make a split section decision based upon the actual situation you face not upon a staged scenario described by a trainer. Like any encounter accuracyis you best asset. yes, you might get only one shot. Her is how you train for that. put up a 6 inch circular target (head). Practice hitting it at 15 feet, about the maximum distance you will face in interior combat. Beyond 15 feet you might kill the hostage, so better to break the engagement, reposition, and wait for the opportunity to take the shot.

    I firmly believe that the nonsense preached by the trainer was aimed at increasing proficiency, his proficiency to extract money from you. when I was n CQB pistol training in the Corps here is what my trainer preached. THe way you win a gunfight is to be fast and accurate. when I was clearing buildings in Hue City with an M1911 I learned first hand he was correct.
    USMC 9/59 through 9/69
    Vietnam June ‘66 to February ‘68
    MOS: 4641, Combat Photographer

    Memberships:
    Gun Owners of America
    Second Amendment Foundation
    Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Against Crime

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array WebleyHunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    2,497
    The ones that I dislike are the 90° "straight up and press out" technique for drawing a handgun and the perfectly isoscoles shooting stance. I guess it's not so much those specific techniques, it's the "if your not doing this then you are stupid" attitude that tends to be broadcast by the technique supporters.
    Enjoying my daily viewing of the "love has no labels" SJW clickbait on DC.com.

    Active Shooter Response- Assess the situation, Position yourself to gain tactical advantage, Engage perpetrator violently (APE).

    When shopping at Walmart, remember that even serial killers need to buy toilet paper.

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    1,538
    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    I learned to not take your eye off the aggressor until you are certain he is unable to get off another shot. That means dead or suffering from massive injury. Training for the almost inconceivable scenario that you might be caught in flanking movement or rear attack in a civilian scenario is silly. Could it happen. Likely? No. I m not losing any sleep over that scenario.



    The most direct attack in civilian or military combat is always to press the attack as quickly as possible with the greatest fericity you can muster. It is that simple and well proven by experience not theory.



    You cannot train for such a situation. You have to make a split section decision based upon the actual situation you face not upon a staged scenario described by a trainer. Like any encounter accuracyis you best asset. yes, you might get only one shot. Her is how you train for that. put up a 6 inch circular target (head). Practice hitting it at 15 feet, about the maximum distance you will face in interior combat. Beyond 15 feet you might kill the hostage, so better to break the engagement, reposition, and wait for the opportunity to take the shot.

    I firmly believe that the nonsense preached by the trainer was aimed at increasing proficiency, his proficiency to extract money from you. when I was n CQB pistol training in the Corps here is what my trainer preached. THe way you win a gunfight is to be fast and accurate. when I was clearing buildings in Hue City with an M1911 I learned first hand he was correct.
    In a recent police class that I taught in Florida I noticed one student doing that after every drill.
    Kidding around I told him that he did not have to do the “ Combat Twitch” in this class.
    He was not amused.
    Mike1956, flh, bakes and 4 others like this.

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    1,538
    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    The ones that I dislike is the 90° "straight up and press out" technique for drawing a handgun and the perfectly isoscoles shooting stance. I guess it's not so much those specific techniques, it's the "if your not doing this then you are stupid" attitude that tends to be broadcast by the technique supporters.
    One of my mentors called that the “Pretty Boy” draw.
    Dashcam videos show how “often” it is used.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    West Branch
    Posts
    5,856
    That modern double stiff arm business flucks up my style. I will not follow.

    How you find yourself in a lethal force situation, that's my interest. Just make sure you know who it is you have found, that's my interest.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
    Doghandler
    We have deep thinkers and stinkers in this group that could come up with a solution...
    welder516
    Buck the donkey

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array CreedDryrot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    OREGON
    Posts
    634
    I think much of this born out of what the student wants and not what the student needs. A lot of training has become 'hybrid'. One part actual practical training for self defense, one part tacticool video game moves. I know more than a handful of shoters who only started because of Call of Duty. That was their driving factor, self defense was secondary, and this is the type of training that would appeal to them. Just my thoughts.
    gatorbait51 likes this.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    5,745
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I agree. Other dogma that ticks me off;

    -the ingrained training that if you do this correctly and quickly enough that you will not take a hit. This is setting people up for unrealistic expectations and does not promote the survival and fight thru mentality needed to persevere or cultivate a proper mindset.
    I'm glad you brought that up. I was privileged to take a Tactical Medicine class that went beyond trauma first aid. We got on the range and had to simulate being in a gunfight and both getting hit and having a partner get hit and then having to go down on the ground, drag ourselves to cover and perform first aid on ourselves and partners while "returning fire" with live ammo. Of course, we were closely supervised by the instructor for safety. It was one of best, but most challenging, range courses I've taken.

    And of course, we didn't experience the pain, disability and shock of actually being shot, nor were we actually under fire, but it was eye opening just to experience just the multitasking that you have to do. I feel like knowing what I would need to do if I got shot and was under fire, how to prioritize, would make me mentally better able to push through the situation if I were shot, than if I were shot and was just clueless what to do.
    glockman10mm and matthew03 like this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,066
    the whole leaving the gun at your 12 and looking over your shoulder is something that would fit in the “training scars” category. Behind you is not going to be considered inside the range limits at most ranges, so they don’t want loaded guns being pointed that way, or sweeping other students on the firing line. Hopefully the instructors are smart enough to realize this, and they don’t actually think that is how you are supposed to do it. One day we will probably see some video of a concealed carrier who fires 3 shots at the bad guy, turns his head over both shoulders, and attempts to reholster, just before he gets laid out by the bad guy who is still charging him. All because that’s what he was taught in training...

    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    The ones that I dislike are the 90° "straight up and press out" technique for drawing a handgun and the perfectly isoscoles shooting stance. I guess it's not so much those specific techniques, it's the "if your not doing this then you are stupid" attitude that tends to be broadcast by the technique supporters.
    As opposed to drawing how?
    Nmuskier and gatorbait51 like this.
    We get the government we deserve.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    The BAD lands
    Posts
    11,728
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    There are several bits of dogma and doctrine put forth at many of the top training venues which bother me to the point of finding them counter-productive, maybe even dangerous in a real-life encounter. Feel free to add to, or eviscerate:
    The "Check 360" prior to holstering. This is the one, insisted on by many trainers, in which the student is required to look to the rear over each shoulder after the last shot taken, prior to holstering, to "check for additional threats". It is done from a stationary posture, keeping the gun pointed at the shooter's 12:00. This has the effect of putting the student's face directly between any possible threat and the muzzle line of his gun. If there actually was a threat to the rear, he would actually be getting punched in the face or worse, defenselessly.
    This is their attempt to force you to break tunnel vision. In a real fight your will naturally increase focus on the threat, better known as tunnel vision.

    Starting the draw from the surrender position. This one simply slows the draw down by adding pointless, additional motion and distance between the hands, gun and first shot. In an actual situation, those added tenths could well be the difference between success and dead.
    This came from competitive shooting. Indicating that you were being robbed, it is very fast if practiced. I much prefer the PPC starting point of hands at the waist in front, or the IDPA hands relaxed at your sides.

    The "you only get one shot" scenario, often some rendition of a hostage or distance shot, or both. In the scenario training, one shot and one shot only is allowed. Again, in a real situation, adhering to that protocol could well be the difference between success and something much less desirable. Everywhere else, shooting until the threat is stopped is to go-to strategy. Why change it to the shooter's detriment here?

    There is nothing wrong in throwing this in there. Many times, you do only get one shot. They either move or when you shoot them they fall down, sometimes behind something.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

    In a world of snowflakes, be a torch.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •