There Are No Defensive Shooting Experts

There Are No Defensive Shooting Experts

This is a discussion on There Are No Defensive Shooting Experts within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A though-provoking article by Grant Cunningham: https://www.grantcunningham.com/2019...oting-experts/ "If, by “expert”, you mean someone with a significant amount of first-hand experience in the activity. Here’s the ...

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    There Are No Defensive Shooting Experts

    A though-provoking article by Grant Cunningham:

    https://www.grantcunningham.com/2019...oting-experts/

    "If, by “expert”, you mean someone with a significant amount of first-hand experience in the activity.

    Here’s the dirty little secret no one in this business will admit to: none of us have enough — in most cases any — experience defending ourselves against a criminal attacker to derive any lessons worth teaching."
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

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    Senior Member Array DaGunny's Avatar
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    In his blurb he admitted that he has no experience defending himself from a criminal attacker. Odd that he has written several books on revolver self defense and a number of articles on the subject.


    So he's saying "Listen to me because I know as little about the subject as everybody else."
    KNOWLEDGE: A tomato is a fruit.
    WISDOM: Not putting a tomato in a fruit salad.
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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    I saw that on Grant's message. I agree with him. As often is the case, Rory Miller sheds some light on this. He says, "Experience is no substitute for training and training is no substitute for experience." Experience keeps you from freezing when you need to move. Training teaches you what to do once you start moving. Most combat instructors are experts in combat skill and tactics, but very few are experts in violence. And even if you train with someone who is expert in violence, how much of that can be passed on? Expertise in violence only comes with experience in violence.

    A guy I studied martial arts with for 14 years was a Vietnam combat veteran and an experienced street fighter, having grown up "in the "hood." He had faced violence. He said no matter how much training you have, you have to approach real combat with a "beginner's mind." Your attitude should be, "I know nothing...but I have ideas!" Approaching real violence thinking you are "an expert" is dangerous. Blindly following what some "training expert" has taught you can be dangerous.

    I take this seriously. I go to shooting training and H2H training to get ideas, not to develop "training expertise" or embrace dogmas. If something is being taught I know I will never use, I try it out and have fun with it, but then put it aside. I wait for those moments where something is taught that makes me think," Hmm...I'm gonna practice that...that might work for me." If I can pick up one or two of those in a class, I figure it was worth it.

    I'm really skeptical of "experts" anyway. I'm not necessarily skeptical that they personally could handle violence. My question is can they help me learn to cope with violence. My rules are: 1) Any instructor can make any technique work if he is controlling the scenario. AND 2) Any instructor can make any technique look stupid and ineffective if he is controlling the scenario. So expertise can often be an illusion.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaGunny View Post
    In his blurb he admitted that he has no experience defending himself from a criminal attacker. Odd that he has written several books on revolver self defense and a number of articles on the subject.


    So he's saying "Listen to me because I know as little about the subject as everybody else."
    I think that is what most instructors are saying, whether they will admit it or not.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    Distinguished Member Array patkelly4370's Avatar
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    I once got into a 'lively' political discussion with a physics professor, actually had a PhD.
    I asked where he had worked as a physicist, his resume only listed universities.
    I couldn't get him to admit that he was actually a teacher, with no practical experience.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by patkelly4370 View Post
    I once got into a 'lively' political discussion with a physics professor, actually had a PhD.
    I asked where he had worked as a physicist, his resume only listed universities.
    I couldn't get him to admit that he was actually a teacher, with no practical experience.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    I had a college business professor actually admit to the class that because he failed in the business world, he decided to teach.
    G26Raven, Bad Bob, OD* and 6 others like this.

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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    I don't call myself an expert, however, I have had endless hours of training and been involved in hundreds of fights with criminals. I have been stabbed 3 times. I have been shot at numerous times, could even tell where they were sometimes. I have had hundreds of people at gunpoint, maybe even fought with the same people. I have been at gunpoint myself a few times, even disarmed guys that were intent on doing me harm.

    I was laughing about it at work the other day lamenting that in September it will be 40 years going into harms way.... My partner a few years older said it will be 45 for him.

    I do feel that gives me an insight into human behavior and the dynamics of a fight.

    What is a gunfight? A fight someone has brought a gun too. Poor Grant is in the business to make money, with no experience he spews his opinion, like many.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niks View Post
    I had a college business professor actually admit to the class that because he failed in the business world, he decided to teach.
    The old quote in LE, those that can do, those that can't teach.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I saw that on Grant's message. I agree with him. As often is the case, Rory Miller sheds some light on this. He says, "Experience is no substitute for training and training is no substitute for experience." Experience keeps you from freezing when you need to move. Training teaches you what to do once you start moving. Most combat instructors are experts in combat skill and tactics, but very few are experts in violence. And even if you train with someone who is expert in violence, how much of that can be passed on? Expertise in violence only comes with experience in violence.

    A guy I studied martial arts with for 14 years was a Vietnam combat veteran and an experienced street fighter, having grown up "in the "hood." He had faced violence. He said no matter how much training you have, you have to approach real combat with a "beginner's mind." Your attitude should be, "I know nothing...but I have ideas!" Approaching real violence thinking you are "an expert" is dangerous. Blindly following what some "training expert" has taught you can be dangerous.

    I take this seriously. I go to shooting training and H2H training to get ideas, not to develop "training expertise" or embrace dogmas. If something is being taught I know I will never use, I try it out and have fun with it, but then put it aside. I wait for those moments where something is taught that makes me think," Hmm...I'm gonna practice that...that might work for me." If I can pick up one or two of those in a class, I figure it was worth it.

    I'm really skeptical of "experts" anyway. I'm not necessarily skeptical that they personally could handle violence. My question is can they help me learn to cope with violence. My rules are: 1) Any instructor can make any technique work if he is controlling the scenario. AND 2) Any instructor can make any technique look stupid and ineffective if he is controlling the scenario. So expertise can often be an illusion.

    Excellent post.
    gatorbait51 and Rockymonster like this.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    I don't call myself an expert, however, I have had endless hours of training and been involved in hundreds of fights with criminals. I have been stabbed 3 times.
    I'm gonna need a bigger knife...
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    Quote Originally Posted by patkelly4370 View Post
    I once got into a 'lively' political discussion with a physics professor, actually had a PhD.
    I asked where he had worked as a physicist, his resume only listed universities.
    I couldn't get him to admit that he was actually a teacher, with no practical experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by niks View Post
    I had a college business professor actually admit to the class that because he failed in the business world, he decided to teach.
    Those sound like ironies, but they aren't. Albert Einstein and Steven Hawking never helped build a nuclear reactor. All their work was theoretical, academic, yet they are probably the two best known physicists ever. Applied physicists who actually build nuclear reactors, such as the ones I worked with at Westinghouse Nuclear, are never remembered for anything. They are basically high level engineers.

    Arguably the most famous management consultant, professor and business thinker, Peter Drucker, is acknowledged as being instrumental in helping General Motors, GE, Sears and IBM become what they were back in the day. He was asked by a reporter why he only taught and consulted, why he didn't run a big company. He said he would be an an awful CEO. It is a completely different skillset. There is a necessary place for people who teach and consult in business as well as people who run businesses.

    With teaching and consulting, you are imparting a framework for the "doers" to comprehend what they are doing. The doers just "turn the crank" on that framework every day.

    Back to this discussion, gun trainers teach students defensive shooting techniques. No one can teach a student practical application. You could have a trainer who has been in a dozen gunfights, but he can't make his students experienced gunfighters in a class. The student would only get that experience by being in a dozen gunfights, which is something they should hope never happens.

    I think Grant Cunningham's article is only pointing out that trainers, no matter how much or how little real-world experience they have, should realize their limitations, and students should realize the limitations of training. In the H2H world, Rory Miller, who has a ton of experience in fighting hardened criminals AND teaching, basically says the same thing.
    Last edited by jmf552; June 8th, 2019 at 11:23 AM.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    As far as I know, Rob Leatham and Jerry Miculek have never been in a real live gun fight. That said, people pay lots of attention whenever either of them impart gun-fighting wisdom. Those are just two examples. There are many others.
    bakes, Havok, jmf552 and 5 others like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    I don't call myself an expert, however, I have had endless hours of training and been involved in hundreds of fights with criminals. I have been stabbed 3 times. I have been shot at numerous times, could even tell where they were sometimes. I have had hundreds of people at gunpoint, maybe even fought with the same people. I have been at gunpoint myself a few times, even disarmed guys that were intent on doing me harm.

    I was laughing about it at work the other day lamenting that in September it will be 40 years going into harms way.... My partner a few years older said it will be 45 for him.

    I do feel that gives me an insight into human behavior and the dynamics of a fight.

    What is a gunfight? A fight someone has brought a gun too. Poor Grant is in the business to make money, with no experience he spews his opinion, like many.
    They are all in it to make money. I don't want to get in a gun fight with him.
    bakes, jmf552, AzQkr and 1 others like this.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

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    He is correct, imo.

    What experience does is allow you to know how you will react in the heat, and I do not think that can be imparted on anyone with enough force or violence to teach them anything....but it will make them feel better.

    I haven’t dwelt nor concern myself about self defense for a long time now. I have been there enough that I know how I will react. It’s a fun topic to banter over, but that’s about the extent of it for me:)
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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    Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate.
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