Lessons learned - Page 2

Lessons learned

This is a discussion on Lessons learned within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Havok “Instructors” can basically steal money from people when they demonstrate something and their audience is too inexperienced to know what they ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    “Instructors” can basically steal money from people when they demonstrate something and their audience is too inexperienced to know what they are looking at. Not saying that’s always the case, but it is sometimes.
    Exactly.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    It all depends on the subject being taught.

    You can't teach mindset or common sense.
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  3. #18
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    As a physician, I was always grateful that I did not have to have all the diseases, disorders and injuries that I treated.
    100% of home invasions occur......in someone's home.....usually without warning.

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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    What does that mean, exactly?
    There is a lot to be gained from practical experience, typically LEO or military, who have been well trained and used that training on a routine basis, either on the street or in armed conflict. I find them more credible than someone who hasn't actually practiced what they preach.
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    People who are teaching based on experience doing it.
    OK, I'd like to respectfully challenge that. I know some of these are over the top, and I am not doing that to be disrespectful. But the "experience beats skill" argument does lead to some interesting questions that need to be considered:
    • Here's the big question: If you have that experience, to what extent can you transfer to students? Is a student who has been trained by an experienced gunfighter really any better prepared than a student trained by a someone with no gunfighting experience? Is that "in the moment, killer instinct" transferable?
    • Is there not a danger that having a trainer who has been in a particular kind of gunfight, say gunfights resulting from traffic stops, might only develop proficiency in students for that kind of gunfight?
    • Is the grandmother down the street who successfully shot an intruder more qualified to teach a defensive shooting course than say, someone like Grant Cunningham?
    • If gun trainers who have been in gunfights think this is important, why don't they put their body count on the landing page of their website? Why aren't their articles like, "The ten instructors who have been in the most gunfights?" Shouldn't this site have a stat in our profiles: "Join Date...Location....Posts...Number of gunfights? Are we who are looking for training and advice supposed to just go on rumor?
    • How are we supposed to verify an instructor's claim that he has been in X gunfights? Just because he said so? Should he provide copies of police reports? I think there must be some "stolen valor" out there.
    • How many instructors can claim this? I would say it would narrow the number or trainers down to so few trainers that there would hardly be enough training available for people who wanted it. We might as well not go for training unless we can find an experienced gunfighter.
    • Should instructors be rated for some combination of: Number of gunfights? Number of kills? Number of bad guys? Some complexity factor, like range, number of shots fired, criminal records of the bad guys? Should they lose points if they got shot in the process?
    • How does police shooting experience stack up vs. military experience, vs. civilian expedience?
    • What about people who have been in a lot of gunfights, but have no teaching ability, who can't even organize a class? Are they still better instructors than someone with no experience who can do those things?
    • Here's an off the wall thought: Just like the security industry sometimes recruits former criminals to teach law enforcement personnel, why don't we recruit former hitmen from the Mafia and MS-13 to teach shooting classes? I mean, they all have experience and it would give them employment to rehabilitate them. Win-win! Based on the experience criteria, they should be top notch!
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Cornhusker95's Avatar
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    If they are offering you a service they are a salesman ....It is up to each person to do the vetting
    of the person providing the service.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornhusker95 View Post
    If they are offering you a service they are a salesman ....It is up to each person to do the vetting
    of the person providing the service.
    This is the bottom line.
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    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  9. #23
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    That old worn out cliche used for self promotion here so much that says “ you don’t know what you don’t know”, should say “ if you don’t know what you don’t know, you can be hoodwinked to believe anything”.

    A person with verifiable experience can at least be vetted to a degree over someone who was a secret operator in foreign lands that cannot talk about it, or other such nonsensical claims.
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    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  10. #24
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    Does anyone have to be considered an expert to be able to impart worthwhile skills to another? Does anyone have to be a confirmed gunfight survivor to be able to impart worthwhile SD gun skills to another?

    The person who started American Pistol Institute (API) and the modern technique had no actual street experience and had never been in a gunfight. Yet multitudes of people considered him an expert in SD with a pistol and sought his training doctrine.

    The person that started LFI had little practical street experience, and has never been involved in a gunfight. Yet multitudes of people consider him an expert in SD with a pistol and seek his training doctrine.

    The good doctor Piazza is considered an expert in SD with a pistol and never been in a SD gun fight, yet multitudes of people seek his training doctrine.

    The list of experts is long with those who've got little to no practical experience but have been shown to be great marketers. People flock to their establishments and pay hefty fees to be educated in SD pistol skills nonetheless. In the final analysis, if the student believes they received value for monies spent, whether they did or not is simply irrelevant where the subject of expertise the trainer had/has in practical experience in what they offered students.
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  11. #25
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    Having been both a student and a teacher, I learned one absolutely invaluable lesson about teaching. One's attitude goes further than any knowledge you can impart.

    If a teacher approaches the matter of teaching as if everyone in the world is a complete newb, or total idiot, I can pretty much guarantee that at some point, someone will highlight that teacher's deficiencies.

    Just as a little leavening goes a long way, so a little humility makes a world of difference.

    And just a word to the wise. Never measure success by the number of people who flock to your side. Some of the most intelligent people who ever lived were almost universally disliked. And some of the greatest shysters ever known have been universally acclaimed - before they were exposed.
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  12. #26
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    "We must learn from the mistakes (experience) of others because we won't live long enough to make all those mistakes ourselves."

    If we expect our instructors to teach from their experience, how many gunfights would we expect them to have been involved in? 2, 10, 100? The odds of surviving gunfights go down as the numbers go up. Would we want them to teach based on their experience alone? That could be a pretty narrow point of view. While experience would be a plus, I would rather learn from someone that teaches from the wisdom gained by studying thousands of gunfights as well as the analysis that resulted from those gunfights. I just can't expect a self defense instructor to experienced thousands of gunfights.
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornhusker95 View Post
    If they are offering you a service they are a salesman ....It is up to each person to do the vetting of the person providing the service.
    So how do you vett gunfighting experience? The instructor’s claims? How easy would it be to claim experience, but not have it? What if they are the kind of person who actually is experienced, but doesn’t like to talk about it, which BTW, I respect. We have people on this site who claim to have experience. I give them the benefit of the doubt for forum discussions, but if you are considering taking training from them, how do you verify that?
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    The most I ever learned was when I was an instructor in the Navy teaching students from multiple countries. My job was what they called dumb-dumb study, which would be politically incorrect today. I was there for four hours after class to help people struggling to keep up in class and help them with their homework. I had to find ways to get the subject across in their culture and their way of thinking.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    So how do you vett gunfighting experience? The instructor’s claims? How easy would it be to claim experience, but not have it? What if they are the kind of person who actually is experienced, but doesn’t like to talk about it, which BTW, I respect. We have people on this site who claim to have experience. I give them the benefit of the doubt for forum discussions, but if you are considering taking training from them, how do you verify that?
    If you have military combat experience, a DD-214 should reflect that, and all other rewards. If you were LE, then you would have credentials whether active or retired, and pretty much every officer will break leather many times and be faced with a potential deadly force situation, even if they have only been on the job a short while.
    The officer does not have to fire the gun in order to benefit from what the situation teaches.

    These are just a couple I can think of.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  16. #30
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    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...eapon-on-duty/

    In fact, only about a quarter (27%) of all officers say they have ever fired their service weapon while on the job, according to a separate Pew Research Center survey conducted by the National Police Research Platform. The survey was conducted May 19-Aug. 14, 2016, among a nationally representative sample of 7,917 sworn officers working in 54 police and sheriff’s departments with 100 or more officers.

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